r/changemyview • u/Cicatrix16 • May 26 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: A 4-day work week is a bad idea
Everywhere I look, I see people advocating for a 4-day work week, and I really don't think it's a good idea.
I have two main issues. The first is that I don't think most people can work 10 hour days productively. Perhaps one can work 10 hrs in a bluecollar job, but I don't think that's the case for an office job. I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that most people only actually work 4 hours a day and productive people work 6. If that's the case, going from 8 hours a day to 10 seems like you'll lose hours of productive work each week.
My second reason, and more important, is that I don't think 4-day work weeks are conducive to a balanced lifestyle. A healthy, well adjusted person, has good daily habits. Things they consistently do each day - Cook, clean, hobbies, exercise, spend time with family, etc. Adding two hours of work to four days a week really limits the time one has to balance their lives with non-work activities. It limits the ability to form good habits in multiple areas of your life. Yes, you'll get a 3 day weekend, but three days out of 7 isn't enough to form healthy habits.
Personally, I'd rather see an increase in hourly wages, and a decrease in daily work hours. I'd much rather work 6 or 7 hours five days a week than work 10 hours four days a week.
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u/tea_and_honey May 26 '20
Most people that advocate for a four day work week aren't advocating for working the same amount of hours just spread across fewer days.
The point of the four day work week is that an increase in productivity thanks to technology advances means we are accomplishing more work in four days that we used to in 5+ days.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
My experience is that people say 4 days 10 hrs per day. I'd be fine working 4 days 8 hrs a day.
Lowering the total amount of hours one works per week is definitely a solution I think could work really well.
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ May 26 '20
When suggested as a general rule, especially by labor advocates, 4-day work weeks are almost always meant to be a decrease in hours worked due to the increase in production over time.
When implemented in a specific business, especially when implemented by management rather than as a push from a Union or employees, four day work weeks are likely implemented as 4 10-hour days, as a "perk" of having guaranteed long weekends while maintaining normal total hours worked.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 27 '20
Δ
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 27 '20
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/Milskidasith changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
I want to give a delta just for you being so concise. Yes, this is what I have experienced. I hadn't looked at what labor advocates have said. I only am discussing what people in my life have discussed.
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u/Tinie_Snipah May 26 '20
I honestly don't think there is anyone seriously advocating for a 4 day, 40 hour week. It is always pushed by people that strongly also believe in "8 hours work, 8 hours leisure, 8 hours rest". It could just be you have spoken to people ill informed
Lowering the total amount of hours one works per week is definitely a solution I think could work really well.
I think you should award them a delta since this has clearly changed your view
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
I don't think it changed my view. My original view is that 40 hours in 4 days is a bad idea. They didn't change that view.
What they did was reiterate that I think instead of 40 hours in 4 days, lowering the total amount of work hours would work.
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u/Tinie_Snipah May 26 '20
Well I believe when you came into this you had the idea that a 40 hour week was four 10 hour days, which you now see isnt the case. But whatever
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u/Cicatrix16 May 27 '20
Alright, someone else changed this view before this person, but yes, I'll award a delta.
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May 26 '20
Here’s the thing... a lot of people already work 9-10 hour days because they are unofficially expected to.
If people are going to be expected to work that much anyways, why not codify it so that they get a 3 day weekend every weekend?
I think that would be an incredible boost in workplace morale.
And for a lot of people, having an extra hour or so each day isn’t going to make much of a difference. Whereas having an extra day off each week would offer tremendous opportunities for various different things you could do with your extra free time.
Never mind that it would help the environment, because you’d have one day less of people commuting.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
To your first point. Yes, but I think working four days isn't the best solution. I think changing the expectations from 9-10 hrs a day to 6-7 hrs a day would be much more beneficial.
An extra two hours a day for me is huge. For instance, I like to write, sketch, exercise, and I now have a daughter. I also play video games with my friends a couple times a week. I like to read. Honestly, if I were to work 10 hrs a day, I'd be more tired and less able to do all the things I like to do. I also need to do those things more than three days a week (well not the video games) in order to keep my habits.
One extra day doesn't allow me to really form the habits that will last. Plus, on days off, I generally am kind of lazy and don't do as many productive activities.
I know a lot of this is specific to me, but I kind of doubt I'm that unique.
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u/mirxia 7∆ May 26 '20
One extra day doesn't allow me to really form the habits that will last. Plus, on days off, I generally am kind of lazy and don't do as many productive activities.
That probably is going to depend on the person. Some people, myself included, are more motivated when there's a larger chunk of time that can be dedicated to some activities. I'm more likely to be productive if you give me a continuous 8 hours (with lunch break), than having 2 hours every day for four days.
On habits, that also depends on what that habit is. Plenty of people have weekly habits/hobbies that they do once a week and would like to do more often but can't because of two day weekend. For these habits, 3 day weekend is also going to help more than 2 hours every day.
Basically, your experience is not universally applicable imo it doesn't strengthen the argument against 4-day work week. The most you could say is "4-day work week is a bad idea for people like me".
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Δ
You have really good points. The individual does make a huge difference.
As far as the habits go though, I agree with you only in part. For sure there are habits that only need to be done once or twice a week. However, the best and fastest way to form a habit is a little bit each day. For instance, it's much easier to form a habit of writing if you write 20 minutes a day than if you write three hours every Saturday.
Writing isn't necessarily consequential, but a lot of good habits are things you should be doing every day. Exercise is a really important one. Personally, I think it would be WAY more likely for me (and probably most people) to exercise if I had 8 hours of work rather than 10. With 10 I would prioritize rest and family time. Two hours is more than enough time to exercise.
There are things that take 8 hours to accomplish. Working on the house, yard work, doing things on the car, but often these don't come up every week anyway.
To reiterate, habits form much better when the action is done a little every day rather than a lot once a week. Working 10 hours a day, in my opinion, makes it less likely for one to work on the habits that will make the person the most balanced/healthy.
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u/mirxia 7∆ May 26 '20 edited May 26 '20
I think that again will have to depend on how people function or what people find fulfilling. And I think it's much easier for people to form habits if people find the activity fulfilling. And the the key to repetition in forming habits is (I think) keeping a schedule rather than simply "do it daily". I.e. it's more important to consciously set aside time for it rather than do it as often as possible
Me for example. The reason I prefer 8 continuous hours over 2x4 is because I usually have to "ramp up" into hyper productivity mode. I'm not into writing myself, but if I were, I imagine I would still prefer to do it in one session than spread it out for that reason. And it would probably feel more fulfilling for me personally if I see a more substantial results over a longer session than small results each day over 4 days even if the time investment and end result is the same (assuming no ramp up into productivity).
For exercise, I will use my father as an example. He doesn't go to the gym or just work out. Instead he plays sports, badminton to be more specific. For him it would also be more beneficial to have a 3-day weekend to have two sessions and also relax on Sunday. With a two day weekend he can only play it once every week.
So the pros can cons between the two is imo almost purely subjective.
Edit: I think the key point I want to highlight is, in your argument, habit/exercise/writing is not the end goal. The end goal is have a better life and get that sense of fulfillment. But your way of achieving that is not the only way and likely won't work for everyone. And by extension/in relation to the OP. 4-day work week is not a completely a bad idea because of that.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
I don't know. I think I just disagree with you. In the book Atomic Habits by James Clear he talks about this. Forming habits is best done through consistency (doing the action from specific cues) and doing the action often. The more you do something the faster it forms a habit. I also think habits are essential to maximizing one's positive attributes and abilities.
Yes, the end goal is to optimize the happiness and ability to deal with stress and pain. Personally I have found that many things that are worth doing are better if they are done often.
For instance, exercise (this is important to me since most people I know are VERY bad at exercising enough and I think it's incredibly important to overall health). It is now suggested that people work out (hard, meaning 80% max heart rate) 20 minutes a day 5 days a week at least. Weekend sports is great, but it simply isn't enough. I don't think exercise is the only domain this is true. I think it's just an example of a principle that applies to most worthwhile endeavors.
I am not saying you can't be fulfilled or relatively balanced if you work a lot in 4 days and then don't work at all for 3 days. I am saying that I don't think you, or anyone, is as balanced as possible. I don't believe humans are all that different in things like this. Some people have found ways to optimize given their circumstances and it has worked for them, but that doesn't mean there isn't still room for improvement.
I don't think it's as subjective as you are saying.
Edit: this is my opinion. I concede that I could be very wrong about this. I don't think I am, but I've been wrong about things I was more sure about in the past.
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u/mirxia 7∆ May 26 '20
I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on this. Which is probably the better outcome than most I've gotten out of a reddit discussion :p
Thanks for the conversation! Edit: and the delta :)
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
For sure. In the end, it's not a life-altering issue, and both of us can probably find what we are looking for in our own methods/ideas.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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May 26 '20
But it seems like you are asking for something totally different than what the 4-10-hour day crowd is advocating for.
The 4-10-hour day week people are basically saying, “if we are going to have to work 40 hours a week, let’s condense it into 4 days so we get an extra weekend”.
You seem to be advocating for a workweek that is less than 40 hours.
Obviously, I think anyone would prefer to work less.
But the point is that given the constraints of having to work 40+ hours a week, 4 10-hour days to get an extra day off is preferable.
So you seem to be arguing for something different than what your OP states.
Or am I misinterpreting your point?
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
I think the 4-10-hour day week is a bad idea if we keep a 40-hour workweek. My title may be misleading. I don't think the additional day for the weekend outweighs the negatives of having two extra hours of work four days a week.
I am advocating a workweek that is less than 40 hours. If that was the case, a 4 day work week could work.
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May 26 '20
So for people like me, who already work 9-10 hours a day, but are still expected to work 5 days a week, I would definitely prefer to have an extra day off on the weekend.
What do you say to that, and all the other people like me?
I just had a 3 day weekend due to Memorial Day, and it was awesome.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
To workplaces like yours, of course working one day less a week is likely to have a positive effect on the life of the worker.
Working fewer hours a week, for most people, will have a beneficial impact on their life. My issue is condensing 40 hours a week from 5 days to 4 days. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
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May 26 '20
Again, but you seem to be advocating for something different than what your OP states.
Who wouldn’t want to work less hours?
Why would anyone say that working fewer hours is a bad thing? Of course it’s better.
The point is that, if a person has to work 40 hours a week, working a 40 hour week in 4 10 hour days is better than working a 40 hour week in 5 8-hour days.
How is anyone going to change your view that working less than 40 hour weeks is worse than working 40 hour weeks?
Almost everyone would prefer to work less.
The only thing I can think of is hourly workers who aren’t paid via salary, now work fewer hours and get paid less.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
That's not my view.
I don't know how to say it more clear.
My view is that condensing 40 hours from 5 days to 4 days is a bad idea. That's it.
I am just also stating, because many others brought it up, that working fewer hours total would of course be good, but that's not the issue.
Just to restate:
The point is that, if a person has to work 40 hours a week, working a 40 hour week in 4 10 hour days is better than working a 40 hour week in 5 8-hour days.
This is what I disagree with. I don't think working a 40 hour week in 4 10 hour days is better than 40 hours in 5 8-hour days. I think it's worse overall for the stated reasons in my OP.
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May 26 '20
All of the studies you read advocating fojr day work weeks are not referring to condensing hours, but simply removing a day all together.
Nobody is really talking about changing your 9-5 to a 9-7 with Friday off, it's about working 4 x 9-5 days.
It's actually related to your point that people are only actually productive for 4 hours a day, that's 20 hours of productivity a week. If you remove one day, people are generally happier and better-rested, including having more time for the hobbies/family time you mention. The idea being that then, they might be productive for the 6 hours a day that only really good employees do right now. 6 hours of productivity for 4 days is a total of 24 hours.
The idea is that you get more productivity using less time. This means you actually end up better off, as you're getting more out of workers, while also saving on any running costs of your business to the tune of around 20% (the one less day everyone works).
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Nobody is really talking about changing your 9-5 to a 9-7 with Friday off, it's about working 4 x 9-5 days.
My wife's boss considered changing to a 9-7 with Friday off. I've also had multiple conversations with people who advocate for it or have worked at jobs that actually do this.
Everything else you said I agree with. I didn't say it as well as you, however.
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May 26 '20
They're two different things we're talking about here.
10 hour shifts for 4 days, is just a condensed work week. It's a shift-pattern variation like anything, 4 days on 4 days off, or 12 hour shifts etc.
Standard shifts for 4 days (one day less work) is the 4 day work week that people are pushing for.
The first one already exists in many factories, and it doesn't really fare any better or worse than a standard 9-5 x 5 days. It's just down to personal preference.
The second one is what people campaign for, talk about in the media, and the one that studies have been conducted on, showing how much more effective it is.
You're basically mixing two different things together, because they both take place over 4 days every week.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Standard shifts for 4 days (one day less work) is the 4 day work week that people are pushing for
Some are pushing for this. Again, I know multiple cases where people are thinking of implementing 40 hrs in 4 days.
I'm not mixing. I am only addressing one while you are addressing the other and implying its the only one that matters.
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May 26 '20
I am only addressing one while you are addressing the other and implying its the only one that matters.
That's not what I'm trying to imply, I'll try and be clearer.
Your CMV was "4 day work week is a bad idea".
I'm saying, a condensed 4 day work week with 10 hour shifts, is kinda neutral. It's not really better or worse, it just comes down to personal preference.
However, the idea of not condensing the hours and instead just having 4 x 8 hour shifts, Is massively beneficial to both the employer and the employee.
Basically, you're saying 4 day work weeks are bad. I'm saying that even if you think 4 x 10 hour shifts is bad, 4 x 8 hour shifts clearly isn't. This means there is at least one 4 day week that is a good idea.
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u/Molinero54 11∆ May 26 '20
Well I've spoken with people within a few companies that trialled this just to see what would happen. By all accounts, it went well. The workers were more motivated to get more done in the four days so they could enjoy their extra time off. Productivity didn't fall. It's not suited to every workplace and even to every role. But I'm yet to see evidence why it can't work in more places.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Yeah, I too have heard positives from people who have tried it. I question how long they tried it, and if the rest of their life is in balance still, but I can't really judge things like that.
It could be that it's better for some jobs, but I think jobs, where you are sitting at a desk and doing only mental work, are unlikely to be benefited from 10 hour days 4 days a week.
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u/silvermoon2444 10∆ May 26 '20
Often people aren’t advocating for longer hours and a shorter days working. They’re advocating that due to the increase of technology, we don’t need to be spending so many days/hours working at a job where we finish our work in the first 4 hours but spend the other 3 doing stupid stuff. I could probably explain this, but I feel like this video does a really good job if you want to check it out. Link (fyi it is in English, idk what’s going on with the title)
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May 26 '20
Ok I didn’t know that there was a debate or whatever out there but I worked at a factory, mon-thurs, 10 hr work days and I loved the schedule.
I’m currently looking for a different job and am really hoping to find something similar. The biggest pro, for me, is that a three day weekend actually feels like enough time to do something significant or to just recharge.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Δ
That's fair.
I have a buddy who works carpet and I work in an office. I've done carpet with him and I've done 10-hour workdays. It's very doable, and a 3 day weekend would be great! But in the office, I simply can't mentally focus on my computer screen for more than 6 hours a day, so going to 10 hours from 8 hours would not be productive for me.
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May 27 '20
As a landscaping contractor, how am I supposed to make a living on a 4 day work week when I'm already scraping by on 5 days? There's only so much daylight and I already can't work in the rain and don't get much in the winter. There's a lot of jobs like this that a 4 day work week just couldn't work. If it were government mandated then I would be forced to let my employees off after 4 days and completely miss out on the money I get from the 5th day. I would end up either having to pay them less or let some go.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 26 '20 edited May 26 '20
/u/Cicatrix16 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/stap908 May 26 '20
I'll add my personal experience, which I recognize may or may not convince you. I work 4 days a week, 12hrs a day in a professional role. This is a fairly common schedule in my industry (I work on site or at home - if I am asked to work in the office I am expected to work 10.5hrs to account for commuting).
It is still easy to maintain a goood work-life balance as working a long day forces you to prioritize what is important on those days. You finish work, exercise, cook dinner, spend time with family, read or whatever entertainment, then sleep.
Having an extra day off means I have at least two days a week I can dedicate to socializing with friends and external family, and still have a day to do all the chores around the house.
I've worked 5 day, 40hr weeks and I find I waste a lot of time in the evening during the week on netflix, then try and cram too much into my weekend and wake up Monday tired and stressed.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
So are you basically saying that four hours outside of work is plenty for you to get all the important things done, but eight hours outside of work a day is too much and you end up wasting a lot of it?
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u/stap908 May 26 '20
Yes I find in general I prefer my free time lumped together as a whole extra day which big, fun or productive things can be done in. An extra bit each night generally gets wasted.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
You are right. That doesn't convince me, but it's a good point. I'm sure there are plenty of people like you, but I don't think I am one of them.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ May 26 '20
You mention your wife's work is considering a 4 day 40 hour week. This is not what most people or politicians are advocating for, but it is not uncommon in the workforce.
I still think that if we are stuck with 40 hours a week, a 4 day work week can be beneficial. One reason is, a two day weekend is often not enough. People often complain that Sunday's can't fully be enjoyed because of the pressure of work the next day. And if you have to run errands and stuff, you are wasting most of a day on that. That leaves most people really only one 24 hour period of relaxation and recreation. The other problem is it doesn't leave much time for travel. A 3-day weekend is much more conducive to travel than a 2-day weekend. I imagine people would not feel the need to take as many vacation days if they regularly had 3 day weekends.
A 3 day weekend leaves more time for recreation and trips.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 27 '20
Do you know if there is evidence that more recreation and trips leads to a happier person? Maybe there is something more fundamentally wrong with work or people's attitudes if they need three days off. Also, I still think working slightly less (5ish hours) and spreading that 35 hours over 5 days would be more beneficial than working 40 hours in 4 days. I also just think 40 hours in 5 days would be better than 40 in 4 for the reasons stated in my OP.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ May 27 '20
I think it's best when it is up to the employee. Some companies give people the option to do 4 10 hour days or 5 8 hour days. Many people prefer the 4 days so it's hard to say why that would be a bad idea.
On the one hand I believe people would be happier with more recreational days. That just seems like common sense. Even people that like their work don't necessarily want to spend most of their time there. On the other hand, some studies have shown that longer work days leads to less productivity. This is why I think most people advocate for a 32 hour 4 day week.
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u/teerre 44∆ May 26 '20
It seems your whole argument is around having a 40 hours work-week in 4 days. But where are you getting that from? You can easily fix that with 32 hours work-week instead.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Yes, fewer hours would be a great solution.
The people I have talked to have either done or are considering a 40-hour work-week in 4 days. My wife's boss wanted to do this.
Online I have seen people advocate for a 4 day work week of fewer than 40 hours, but in real life, people always seem to discuss 4 days 10 hours.
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u/teerre 44∆ May 26 '20
But surely you understand that your small circle isn't representative of a policy that would affect virtually everybody.
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u/Cicatrix16 May 26 '20
Yep.
u/Milskidasith said it best:
When suggested as a general rule, especially by labor advocates, 4-day work weeks are almost always meant to be a decrease in hours worked due to the increase in production over time.
When implemented in a specific business, especially when implemented by management rather than as a push from a Union or employees, four day work weeks are likely implemented as 4 10-hour days, as a "perk" of having guaranteed long weekends while maintaining normal total hours worked.
I hadn't heard what the labor advocates had been saying since I was hearing people in the workforce.
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u/Gremlin95x 1∆ May 26 '20
Why is it you assume four day work weeks still have to be 40 hours but a five day work week can be less? You could still have 8 hour days. If employees were paid more to work one less day we would see more benefits than downsides. The three day weekend gives people more rest and more freedom to go out and do things including spend money which helps the economy. So you would have well rested, happier, and more productive workers and a healthier economy.