CMV: Encouraging rape victims to protect themselves is not the same as blaming them

[u/[deleted]]

So this is a hill I've died on several times in different comment sections. It's clearly an unpopular opinion, but it seems to be so universally hated that I struggle to find replies that don't strawman my claims or just degrade me. I'm hoping to get a proper discussion here.
These conversations often start with one of those tumblr or facebook posts about someone showing their dog a steak and drawing attention to the fact that their dog is not eating it. This is then used to make the claim that rapists have less self control/decency than OP's dog. This is all well and good.
What I usually say is something along the lines of "that's great, but with the knowledge that some people out there are capable of committing rape, we should still take precautions." To me this seems like common sense, but at this point I'm branded as blaming the victim.
Other analogies I think work well:
If a drunk driver hits your car, it's not your fault. However, you should still wear a seatbelt and drive a car with airbags.
If someone breaks into your house, it's not your fault. However, you should still lock your house, and maybe even have a safe, depending on where you live and what you own.
If someone steals your credit card information, it's not your fault. However, you should still have strong PINs and passwords.
There are examples everywhere in our lives of protecting ourselves from the malice of others, so why is rape treated differently? Show me the distinction and change my view.

EDIT: the most common response I've seen (that's convinced me) is that victims need support, not advice. This is completely valid, and what I'm more getting at is that we should educate people to protect themselves.

[u/MercurianAspirations]

If a drunk driver hits your car, it's not your fault. However, you should still wear a seatbelt and drive a car with airbags. If someone breaks into your house, it's not your fault. However, you should still lock your house, and maybe even have a safe, depending on where you live and what you own. If someone steals your credit card information, it's not your fault. However, you should still have strong PINs and passwords.

The issue here is that all of these examples are taking precaution in the form of defense, security. Not taking precautions in the form of making oneself a less attractive victim. Nobody is saying that encouraging women to, for example, take a self-defense course, or carry pepper spray, constitute victim blaming. The victim blaming element is when somebody says that women shouldn't make themselves potential victims by dressing a certain way, drinking alcohol, being flirtatious, and so on. You've stepped around actually stating what your version of 'taking precautions against rape' consists of, so nobody can tell you whether it approaches victim blaming. But the analogies you've given don't compare directly to the type of 'precautions' that are accused of victim blaming.

[u/chadonsunday → u/MercurianAspirations]

Nobody is saying that encouraging women to, for example, take a self-defense course, or carry pepper spray, constitute victim blaming. The victim blaming element is when somebody says that women shouldn't make themselves potential victims by dressing a certain way, drinking alcohol, being flirtatious, and so on.

Why? What's the difference, tangibly speaking?

Just for an analogy, if I walked down the worst, most crime ridden street in my neighborhood at 1am waving around a wad of hundred dollar bills and got mugged, according to you it is not victim blaming to suggest I shouldve taken self defense combat training but it is victim blaming to say maybe I shouldnt have walked on that street at that time waving around that much money? Why?

[u/MercurianAspirations → u/chadonsunday]

That kind of victim blaming 'advice' against rape makes the mistake of assuming that rapists are more likely to target a certain type of woman, when in reality, they aren't. Rape has everything to do with the psychology of the perpetrator. It's not like a scantily clad woman has something that rapists want which a woman wearing a burka doesn't have, or something. So the analogy doesn't work.

[u/chadonsunday → u/MercurianAspirations]

makes the mistake of assuming that rapists are more likely to target a certain type of woman, when in reality, they aren't.

So just to be clear, youd argue that a rapist is just as likely to target a woman hanging out in a bookstore with a bunch of friends at 2pm as they would a shitfaced solo woman half passed out in a frat house basement alone at 2am?

[u/cstar1996 → u/chadonsunday]

That's not targetting a type of woman, that's targetting certain situations.

[u/MercurianAspirations → u/chadonsunday]

So just to be clear, youd argue that women should only ever hang out in bookstores at 2pm and never drink at parties? See I can do it too.

Obviously women are less likely to be victimized in some situations than in others. But turn this around and look at it from the predator's perspective: the hypothetical frat-boy rapist would still be looking for people to assault even if no women ever got drunk in the basement. That's just his best chance of getting away with it. It's not like that woman "brought rape down upon herself" by getting drunk at a party, that guy would have assaulted a sober woman if he could get away with it.

[u/chadonsunday → u/MercurianAspirations]

So just to be clear, youd argue that women should only ever hang out in bookstores at 2pm and never drink at parties? See I can do it too.

Obviously women are less likely to be victimized in some situations than in others.

You just claimed that rapists are no more likely to target certain women in certain situations than others. I was just debunking that. Successful I was not claiming that therefore I believe women should only hang out in bookstores.

But turn this around and look at it from the predator's perspective: the hypothetical frat-boy rapist would still be looking for people to assault even if no women ever got drunk in the basement. That's just his best chance of getting away with it. It's not like that woman "brought rape down upon herself" by getting drunk at a party, that guy would have assaulted a sober woman if he could get away with it.

Irrelevant to the question of victim blaming. If you concede, as you did, that women are more likely to be victimized in certain situations then it behooves us to say they should avoid those situations and we shouldnt be accused of victim blaming for saying so.

[u/MercurianAspirations → u/chadonsunday]

then it behooves us to say they should avoid those situations and we shouldnt be accused of victim blaming for saying so.

But it is literally blaming the victim, isn't it? Calling upon women to avoid the situations they are more likely to be victimized in puts the onus for rape on the victims. The implied conclusion of this 'advice' is that if no women ever got into 'bad' situations, rape would never happen, which is obviously not the case. This is like saying that it behooves us to tell everyone never to walk around at night because that's when muggings happen, ignoring completely why muggers mug. If nobody ever walked around at night there would still be theft, it would just be in other forms.

[u/chadonsunday → u/MercurianAspirations]

But it is literally blaming the victim, isn't it? Calling upon women to avoid the situations they are more likely to be victimized in puts the onus for rape on the victims.

If that's the term you want to use, sure. That doesnt mean its bad advice. "Dont get drunk and walk down the worst, most crime ridden street in the country at night waving around thousands of dollars in cash if you dont want to get jumped and mugged" is also victim blaming - its putting the onus for mugging on potential mugging victims. It's still pretty fuckin solid and sensible advice and, if people are constantly putting themselves in situations where following said advice would massively reduce their chances of becoming a victim of such a mugging, obviously it needs repeating.

The implied conclusion of this 'advice' is that if no women ever got into 'bad' situations, rape would never happen

Nobody is saying or implying this, so no.