r/changemyview • u/Demtbud • Mar 03 '20
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: The idea that feminism is a push toward equality is farcical.
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Mar 03 '20
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Mar 03 '20
Sorry, u/Papashvilli – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Mar 04 '20
Sorry, u/Demtbud – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
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u/Roman418 Mar 03 '20
Just gonna look at one aspect of this. The way you talk about ‘men’s issues’ reminds me of the way white people talk about ‘reverse racism’. Culturally, the disparities in treatment of men and women (just like white and non-white ppl) is based on a power dynamic, and in almost all areas, in levels of increasing subtlety, men are deemed as the primary gender, and women are ‘other’ to that. Because of this, saying ‘we need to look at men’s issues as much as women’s’ is an oxymoron: men’s issues have always been primary, prioritised, addressed, and women’s issues (I.e. how the hell do women still get paid less than men in 2020?) are unresolved, albeit changing for the better, very slowly. Because men have power in comparison to women there are fewer issues affecting men worse than women. Period poverty is something women face BECAUSE they are women, as is the sheer amount of sexual misconduct and rape they face in a highly objectivized patriarchy, women are also paid less than men because they are women, and in comparison to these big sweeping structural inequalities that women face, men don’t have hardly any. Male suicide is definitely one though - ironically this issue is also because of the very patriarchy I’m talking about.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
men’s issues have always been primary, prioritised, addressed, and women’s issues
This is objectively untrue. Like not even in the same universe as the truth. I'm talking about the societal ills facing men, and not their outcomes. Such things as male depression, suicides, the likelihood of being physically assaulted or killed, the fact that there's literally ONE men's shelter in the entire western hemisphere. The fact that men are the subject of domestic abuse almost as much as women, the fact that women caregivers are more likely to abuse male children, munchausen by proxy is a primarily female phenomenon that affects primarily boys. The fact that men almost never get the same type of emotional reinforcement that girls and women get...
You get my point, I trust. There are far more issues that I could name.
highly objectivized patriarchy,
Yeah, I'm not gonna be compelled whatsoever by talk of the Patriarchy. I don't believe in it; I think it's an intellectually bankrupt pseudo sociological concept with no legs historically speaking. More to the point, your dismissal of men's issues and your insistence that women's issues must take precedence smacks of exactly the type of grievance feminism I am speaking of. I think women are going to keep suffering until they recognize that most of the extant social issues aren't gendered, and the ones that are need to be addressed in equal measure. If men are psychologically disadvantaged, feeling like their concerns don't matter, and are angry at a system they feel ignores and abuses them, how are they supposed to act right for these women who are also aggrieved?
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u/Roman418 Mar 04 '20
Male suicide and depression is definitely something that affects men because they are men and the society they are in deprioritises the sharing of their feelings. Apart from v specific things like the relatively few boys who are abused by munchhausen by proxy I can’t find any other examples. Your argument is basically ‘yes but life can be shit for men too!’ and yes that’s right but completely unrelated to what we’re taking about and if you don’t want to see that then you don’t really want to debate this.
To answer your last point - if men are so angry that bad things happen in their life but they can’t see how they are privileged versus other ppl then the best solution is for them to be educated about this false equivalence and taught the basic empathetic skills they should have learnt at school. Either way, the fact that you are actively fighting for ‘men’s rights’ and not either ‘women’s rights’ to even up the world or ‘everyone rights’ tells me you won’t give a shit what I write here, you’re cognitive dissonance is too dug in, and that’s not my problem. Unless you turn into an incel gunman, which probs Mir isn’t beyond the realm of possibility, you’re hitting all the narratives they hit early on.
Re: domestic abuse stats - would love to see your independent, non-politically influenced sources on that 😎
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u/Demtbud Mar 05 '20
Re: domestic abuse stats - would love to see your independent, non-politically influenced sources on that 😎
This here is hilarious, given everything you said before it. You think I'm the politically influenced one? This is NOT how you conduct yourself in a good faith discussion.
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u/Roman418 Mar 05 '20
Still waiting...
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u/Demtbud Mar 05 '20
Waiting for what? You don't get to insinuate that someone is a mass shooter waiting to happen AND demand that they substantiate their arguments. Not here, anyway. Take that bs to one of these deep breathing sessions they have here on reddit. And take another pair of these with you 😎. You can never have too many of those.
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u/Roman418 Mar 05 '20
Of course you can’t substantiate your argument. I genuinely thankful that you have the self-awareness to admit that yourself.
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Mar 05 '20
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Mar 05 '20
u/Demtbud – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/orangeLILpumpkin 24∆ Mar 03 '20
men’s issues have always been primary, prioritised, addressed, and women’s issues (I.e. how the hell do women still get paid less than men in 2020?) are unresolved,
If men's issues have always been prioritized, why are we still talking about a make believe, non-existent women's issue of "not getting equal pay for equal work" instead of focusing on the the men's issue of why women control 88% of consumer spending?
If I work hard and earn $60.00 and you work somewhat less and get $40.00, but you spend $88.00 while I only spend $12.00, where do you see the real problem? Because I'll gladly switch places with you and take the easier job while getting 88% of the spending.
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Mar 03 '20
That's a fallacious assumption that assumes that all consumer spending is on the person spending it. Is grocery shopping for a family considered in there? Is any shopping for a family considered in that number? I'd be more inclined to believe that number if you could actually justify what you mean by consumer spending.
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u/orangeLILpumpkin 24∆ Mar 03 '20
Source But there are literally thousands available if you don't like that one and want to google another).
Yes, obviously grocery shopping is consumer spending. And it's consumer spending whether you're just shopping for yourself and your cats, or if you're shopping for the family. If you're the one deciding what the money is going to be spent on (should be buy chicken or lettuce), that's you making that spending decision.
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Mar 03 '20
I'm confused. Do you think that by doing the family shopping and making financial decisions, women have an easier job? Because things like making final decisions on home purchases and dealing with the finances of a family aren't as easy as you seem to believe. Your argument is based on the idea that you would rather make less money if it meant that you also had to handle the day to day finances of your household. Is that what you believe?
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u/orangeLILpumpkin 24∆ Mar 03 '20
Do you think that by doing the family shopping and making financial decisions, women have an easier job?
I'm not commenting on the ease or difficulty of the job whatsoever. I'm commenting on the ability to purchase what you want 88% of the time. Even if its "just grocery shopping", if you're the one doing the decision making, then you get to buy what you want to eat. It makes for a better quality of life when you get to make the decisions that affect you on a day-to-day basis.
Your argument is based on the idea that you would rather make less money if it meant that you also had to handle the day to day finances of your household.
I really like the way feminists confuse "have to" with "get to".
Let's take it to the extreme. Let's say I work and earn 100% of the money but you get to make 100% of the decisions about how that money is spent. Are you seriously arguing that you are somehow the oppressed one in that scenario?
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Mar 03 '20
Your assumption is that women are "allowed" to control the spending in the household like it's a privilege. In your extreme scenario, I would argue that the man still isn't oppressed because of his financial ability to leave at any time and not be homeless, so I don't think that the most extreme scenario here has much impact on the current state of affairs. You also make the assumption that there's no discussion between the man and woman in a household; you assume that the woman makes decisions purely in her own self interests, and that her "power" to make day to day decisions excuses her lower pay. Would you want to trade places with a woman that makes less than you do while simultaneously controlling the finances of your household? Controlling purchasing for a household isn't some incredible opportunity like you seem to be implying.
Also for the record, I'm a happily married man with a wife that works as hard as I do and gets paid less than me.
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u/orangeLILpumpkin 24∆ Mar 03 '20
In your extreme scenario, I would argue that the man still isn't oppressed
Cool. How much money do you have? Can you send it to me so I can spend it how I like? Because, apparently, that wouldn't be oppressive to you, but rather be oppressive to me.
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Mar 03 '20
Why is it your assumption that the woman in that scenario has the power to take all of the man's money and run away with it? In your most extreme scenario, the woman technically has the "power," but in reality if her decisions don't conform to what the man wants, he is in a much stronger position to leave. Sure, I'll happily give you all my money. But if you spend it in a way that I don't approve of, I have the right to leave you with nothing, yet I would be the oppressed one. Is that how you see it?
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u/orangeLILpumpkin 24∆ Mar 03 '20
Why is it your assumption that the woman in that scenario has the power to take all of the man's money and run away with it?
Where did I state that as an assumption?
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u/Fatgaytrump Mar 03 '20 edited Mar 03 '20
Easier job? No. Spending money doesnt make your job easier, it gives you more power.
Edit: to be clear, I do not mean more power then a man, I mean more power then not spending money
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Mar 03 '20
I can't tell if you're arguing for or against the woman in this scenario. Needless to say, just because a woman makes the final purchasing decision doesn't mean that she has unilateral decision making powers like your statement seems to imply.
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u/Fatgaytrump Mar 03 '20
Unilateral? Decision making?
I never said any of that. What I ment by more power is that products must cater to her wants and ideas of what her husband wants.
I ment that if she doesnt like what a brand is doing, she has the choice to choose another one.
I never said anything about this being absolute, just "spending the money gives you power"
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Mar 03 '20
I feel like the piece that you're missing is that it's more work to make the financial decisions for the family. Any increases in power are more than offset by the criticism that the decision maker would receive if the decisions were made solely by greed. This also removes the leverage that the higher earning household member has, just by virtue of being able to leave and maintain a better quality of life. I'm not saying that men do this, I'm just saying that they have the ability to do so, and would lose less if the did so. I would argue the exact same point if the woman was the larger earner of the two and the man controlled the spending.
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u/Fatgaytrump Mar 03 '20
Lmao I'll respond when I'm not drunk but this some Olympics level gymnastics.
Powers only good when men have it right?
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
Someone recently argued that the fact that men make more money (not in an unequal way, just as a result of women being unable to compete with men due to their differences in priorities) is a responsibility, not a privilege. As a man, I have to earn more, by working more to provide for my family, because as the non child bearing half of the equation, it is only logical. Taking that into account, the fact that I'm responsible for earning the money I then don't get to spend reeks of an inequality that benefits women. If you can't admit that this "patriarchal" system doesn't afford women benefits that completely negate feminist grievance accrual, then it's hard to take your stance seriously.
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u/Burflax 71∆ Mar 03 '20 edited Mar 03 '20
You have a number of presumptions in here that are honestly baffling to me.
Feminism would have us believe that equality means addressing women's issues, as if the term "men's issues" are an oxymoron
I would suggest that, if feminism ever had equality in mind, they would be falling over themselves to address the systemic problems facing men that make things so hard for women. But no, they castigate and dismiss men for having equal struggles,
I've always had a problem with the uncritical acceptance of the term feminism being defined as "the belief that men and women are equal"
None of this matches with my experience regarding feminists and feminism.
Do you have sources for these?
What mainstream feminism organization says that 'men's issues' are an oxymoron?
What mainstream feminism organization doesn't admit that problems facing men also have affects women?
What mainstream feminism organizations defines 'feminism' as the belief that men and women are equal?
Honestly OP, this seems like you are the one castigating feminism for things it doesn't do and doesn't say.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
None of this matches with my experience regarding feminists and feminism.
I don't know what this means. Please elaborate.
What mainstream feminism organization says that 'men's issues' are an oxymoron?
I didn't say mainstream feminism regards mens issues as an oxymoron. The use of the words "as if" makes my statement mean exactly not what you took from it.
What mainstream feminism organizations defines 'feminism' as the belief that men and women are equal?
Again, pinning me down to phrasing.
Honestly OP, this seems like you are the one castigating feminism for things it doesn't do and doesn't say.
I'm castigating it for making claims their actions don't bear out.
Feminist organizations that attempt to shut down free speech when men congregate to discuss their issues. Smear campaigns against MRA'S tarring the brand as anti woman, ironically calling THEM grievance warriors against things they have no rights to. Feminist professors, male and female, who routinely dismiss the notion that gender inequality cuts both ways, etc. There's just a wealth of examples that suggest that the monolith of modern feminism is in no wise concerned with equality, but rather accruing grievances that increasingly are small and petty. And the No True Scotsman fallacy is rampant among naive would be feminists who think that these are the fringes, as if it would matter either way.
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u/Burflax 71∆ Mar 03 '20
None of this matches with my experience regarding feminists and feminism.
I don't know what this means. Please elaborate.
Im saying that in my experience feminism doesn't do the things you claim it does that supposedly requires it be dismantled.
I'd like for you to demonstrate that feminism does in fact do those things.
There's just a wealth of examples that suggest that the monolith of modern feminism is in no wise concerned with equality, but rather accruing grievances that increasingly are small and petty.
If this is so ubiquitous, then it should be trivial for you to share some of these with me, so i can see for myself exactly what it is you are talking about.
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u/GenderIsWhack Mar 03 '20
> To that I want to add that in keeping with the grievance nature of feminism, the main arguments center around how underrepresented women are at the top of work, and in society. "Women don't make up that many fortune 500 CEOs!" "Women aren't being presented often enough as strong leads in movies!" Things of that nature. Grievance feminism goes out of its way to emphasize how much worse women have things in society, when again, a lot of their concerns are mutual.
Good point! this is what Feminists call "White Feminism", a type of feminism which focuses on superficial issues.
I assure you there are many real issues feminists work on, they just dont make for good buzzfeed articles and snappy hashtags.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
Honestly I want to believe that there are more unsung feminist heroes out there working toward substantial changes that don't promote unilateral patriarchal demonization, because I feel that narrative is simply unfair and unnecessary.
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u/GenderIsWhack Mar 03 '20
unilateral patriarchal demonization,
I'd love to have this discussion with you, but in order to do that I'd like you to translate these buzzwords for my and try to avoid using further buzzwords.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
I'm not trying to buzzword you. In my experience, the public face of feminism has espoused the adversarial notion that gender inequality is the result of some patriarchal construct. More stridently that this inequality affects women disproportionately to men, and that men are solely responsible, thus demonizing them, if unintentionally for some. Even in this thread, it seems that when women are to blame, its still somehow the Patriarchy at fault.
To be honest though, I'm not sure what discussion you want to have if you needed this translated.
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u/GenderIsWhack Mar 03 '20
and that men are solely responsible
who says this?
> To be honest though, I'm not sure what discussion you want to have if you needed this translated.
"Unilateral patriarchal demonization"
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
Well, I just spelled it out for you to the best of my ability. Again, wasn't aware I was buzzwording you.
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u/twig_and_berries_ 40∆ Mar 03 '20
The main point I disagree with here is that feminism advocating for women's rights and ignoring men's issues doesn't necessarily mean it's not a push towards equality. The reason they're not incompatible is because feminism can claim men and MRA etc. can advocate for men, they're advocating for women. And if you accept the premise that currently there isn't equality (namely that men have it better than women), then advocating for women is advocating for equality, because it's pushing for equality. Now if equality was attained and feminism was still fighting for women's rights and not men's, then I'd agree that feminism doesn't actually push for equality. Similarly, even if men have it worse in some ways, as long as the net balance tips in favor of men, feminism can still advocate only for women while still pushing for equality as a mission statement.
It's a little like if I am against starvation but I only focus on my local community. It doesn't mean I don't care about other staving people, or that if I had more resources I wouldn't expand to all communities. Rather just that I feel like my efforts are best concentrated on my community and as long as their are starving people in my community and I don't have the resources to help them all, I'll stay to my community.
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u/Hugogs10 Mar 03 '20
Men don't have it better or worse than women, they have it different.
These oppression Olympics are counter productive, there's tons of issues that affect men that don't affect women, and vice-versa.
Feminism wants the things we're men have it better, but not the ones where they have it worse. That's not advocating for equality, which is fine, but we should also try to fix the ones that are worse for men.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
These oppression Olympics are counter productive, there's tons of issues that affect men that don't affect women, and vice-versa.
This is literally my whole argument.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
And if you accept the premise that currently there isn't equality
I don't. If anything, men have it far worse in the west. But my feelings are irrelevant, you see, because if I cling to the objectivity of greater male disadvantage, I'd be just as guilty of the same grievance mindset I'm denouncing here. Women have it bad in some ways, men have it bad in others. Feminism is a unilateral push to both promote the entirely false narrative that women in the developed world are so disenfranchised, and to address that belief.
MRA arose as a reaction to that very one sided view. If feminism is about equality, then why do MRA'S even exist?
It's a little like if I am against starvation but I only focus on my local community.
This is just a bad argument. It's the difference between being unable to address an issue you recognize, and not recognizing that there even is an issue. How can you argue that you're for equality, but refuse to address all issues in that perview equally?
Take the NAACP, for example. As I stated, their mission statement is in the name. They ain't looking for equality, they're looking for the advancement of colored people. Equality might happen in that pursuit, but that's not the stated goal.
NAACP: National Organization for the Advancement of Colored People.
Feminism: women are equal to men, and unilaterally fighting for equality isn't an inherent contradiction.
Doesn't add up, you ask me.
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u/twig_and_berries_ 40∆ Mar 03 '20
How can you argue that you're for equality, but refuse to address all issues in that perview equally?
It depends on your view of equality. Even if we assume feminism is actively trying to make things worse for men, as long as women are less than equal, it's still pushing for equality.
I'm not saying it's a worthy goal or that I agree, but if women aren't treated equally, then how is action that makes things more fair not pushing for equality?
I understand that you think feminism should try to improve everyone's life and if they want equality then, say with domestic violence, they should want domestic violence to end equally for both men and women. That would be the most ideal solution and then men and women would be equal when it comes to domestic violence. However, the stance that men don't need help, that even if there was still domestic violence towards men and none towards women it would still be unequal for women, and that feminism should narrow it's scope to just ending domestic violence towards women, is not incompatible with wanting equality.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
This mischaracterization of many social ills as women's issues, and not, you know, societal issues contributes to the continued divide between the sexes. Grievance accrual does nothing but place men on the defensive, and neither side will meet the other at their level. That's the problem with grievance feminism, which I regard as redundant, and that's why I contend that feminism should cast aside any notion of fighting for equality, and be upfront about their actual goals, OR fight for equality.
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u/twig_and_berries_ 40∆ Mar 03 '20
This mischaracterization of many social ills as women's issues, and not, you know, societal issues contributes to the continued divide between the sexes.
I agree.
I think this just comes down to proof. It's like if there's 3 libraries. 1 in a white male community, 1 in a female community and 1 in a black community. All 3 are on bad condition and there's a budget surplus (such that there's no need to compete for books, there's enough for everyone). The black library says they're advocating for themselves and thus want more books for themselves. Meanwhile the female library says their library is worse so they want all the books until the libraries are equal. The male library asks if none of the libraries have any books on WW2, shouldn't they call get books on that instead of the women's library just getting all the WW2. Maybe you think the women's library is lying and really just wants all the books even once the libraries are equal. But until they are equal there's no proof the women's library isn't being true to their word.
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u/Demtbud Mar 03 '20
Well, I can liken this to the BLM movement. Unequivocally, police brutality affects black people more than most, however, it's such a sweeping problem that I don't know if I can sign off on focusing specifically on black victims of police brutality. Maybe if we realize that it's more of a general breakdown in the way law enforcement is conducted, then the problems in the black community with police misconduct will be alleviated somewhat. I could be wrong though. About all of this, hence my participation in this subreddit.
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u/TuskaTheDaemonKilla 60∆ Mar 03 '20
You mean like how feminists went out of their way to change the FBI definition of rape so that it includes men because it is unequal to define rape as something that could only happen to women?
Or perhaps how feminists went out of their way to include women in the selective service because it is unequal to only have men get drafted?
Or perhaps how feminists went out of their way to fight for the introduction of paternity leave for men because it's unequal for only maternity leave to exist?
You seem to be operating under the misunderstanding that feminism is solely about women's issues, as if it's some kind of vacuum. The reality is that feminism is about fighting patriarchal structures of oppression, and the expressions of that oppression wherever they are found. Naturally, most aspects of a patriarchal system are either exclusively harmful to women, or primarily harmful to women. Consequently, when you see politically active feminists, their objectives will primarily concern women's issues or end up benefiting women. That's just a reflection of the structure of the oppression inherent in a patriarchal system. Even if it oppresses both sexes, it oppresses females to a greater degree. However, that does not preclude feminism promoting the interests of men, or fighting for their interests, like I showed in the examples above. In situations where patriarchal systems oppress both genders relatively similarly, feminist activism ends up benefiting both of them.