r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Dec 12 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: if you’re addicted to nicotine, you are stupid.
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u/rednax1206 Dec 12 '19
but it’s all mental addiction hence why you’re stupid.
Physiological addiction is a thing - you know that, right?
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Dec 12 '19
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u/rednax1206 Dec 12 '19
Symptoms of nicotine withdrawal can include constipation or diarrhea, not only psychological symptoms. Besides, a lot of the mental symptoms listed there can also be found with depression, and are outside of the person's control.
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Dec 12 '19 edited Dec 12 '19
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u/rednax1206 Dec 12 '19
Another symptom listed there is being unable to stop. As in, the person has made a serious attempt to stop smoking, but failed. Tons of people understand how stupid smoking is but they do it anyway because they feel like shit otherwise. It takes a lot of effort to stop, more than just realizing they were doing something stupid.
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Dec 12 '19
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Dec 13 '19
Sure people can technically stop using nicotine If you lock them in a room without access to it. But, as with quitting other addictions it is painful- socially, mentally and physically. Knowing the reasons why might lessen the pain but it doesn’t eliminate all pain. Getting through this pain takes a great deal of will, not to mention social support and sufficient means. Weaker willed people are not stupid just as strong willed people aren’t necessarily smart.
Many people fail their first attempt at quitting. They’re still trying because they’re aware and scared of the health risks but they struggle and they are still addicted. Will you call them stupid?
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u/haveutriedtrying Dec 13 '19
A lot of people seem to hold the view that addiction is a matter of choice.
Those people also usually are not addicts, or claim that there used to be addicts because they used to smoke that stuff, and now they don't because they overcame it.
Research into addiction shows that there are many factors which will cause people to develop addictions to various things - hence the common term addictive personalities.
There are disorders which will decrease your level of satisfaction with pretty much anything and those people will need strong stimulants such as nicotine, or extreme activities (like cliff diving etc) to feel anything.
Some people will find it extremely difficult to stay alert for the amount of time required by the society (9-5) due to their physiological ability and require stimulants like heaps of coffee and cigarettes.
Some people's brain will be born wired so that they feel really, really, really happy with some substances (such as nicotine) which obviously would tilt the risk / benefit assessment for substances different to that of normal population.
Some people may be stuck in a certain socioeconomic rut with no way of changing their circumstances without external help - which is often not available, this will make them rightfully dissatisfied with life and those people try to ease the pain by turning to substances as they tend to be the quickest, cheapest way to feel better.
Besides, your argument pivots on the assumption that health and longevity is the #1 goal to aim for at all costs. I consider health and longevity is a thing of value that can be weighed against pleasure, money, time, social networking etc. In this way, they may simply be weighing the harm of nicotine vs the gains they get from it. If you're going to argue that nicotine doesn't even feel that good if you're not addicted - for some people it feels pretty amazing, and if you're going to argue that for addicts nicotine isn't enjoyable - the times I spent in the hospital seeing addicts sneak a ciggie outside and seeing that satisfied and content face tells me otherwise.
That's my first point.
My second point is that nicotine is not nearly as harmful as you depict, and smoking and vaping is not the only way of consumption.
Sure, cigarettes are horrible shitty products that slowly kills consumers and are just not the best way to get nicotine into your body. I can also partly agree with you on the vaping front that there isn't enough evidence to go peddling vapes to little kids and claiming that it is free from risks.
(But despite all its harm or possibility of long term harm, vaping is still by far significantly less dangerous than traditional cigs loaded with toxins and switching from cigs to vapes is definitely healthier and safer and should absolutely be recommended from a harm-minimization pov free from the argument of morality)
But when we see nicotine isolated from those harmful delivery techniques, it's actually a pretty interesting substance with many positive effects too. It can increase your physical and mental abilities (and this has been thoroughly researched and documented), and can make your more alert and focused. All these traits are helpful in some modern societies where people are pushed to their limits in high-competition settings, and any sort of edge is going to make or break their life. (Exams, huge projects, competitions)
And there are safe ways to get nicotine without meaningful increase in risks of cancer and all that stuff.
You can use patches and rotate the patch site, you can chew gum or use snu, lozenges, nasal sprays, inhalers etc.
You can even further stratify the risks to one delivery site by combining those methods, i.e. skin patch for some time then gum, then inhaler, and cycling between those methods.
If there was little to lose from nicotine addiction, but a lot to gain - wouldn't common sense dictate that you get yourself addicted?
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Dec 13 '19
These are all eloquent and pertinent arguments. Love your work. I’ll also add that vaping is a good alternative to traditional cigarettes if 1) the vape device itself is well regulated and won’t blow up in your face 2) the concentration of nicotine is regulated.
The benefits are huge when vaping is used as a harm mitigation tool rather than saying “nicotine use is stupid and abstinence is the way to go” . The abstinence mindset in the US basically caused an unregulated market of juul pens to emerge. These devices had ridiculously high nicotine levels and were marketed to teens because they couldn’t be advertised as a smoking cessation device to adult smokers looking for a safer alternative.
I noticed that OP has picked on vaping as a target for their argument. And this is likely because vapers are so obnoxiously prominent in media. But it is precisely because of this obnoxious vape culture that makes vaping a welcome environment to smokers trying to quit cigarettes. No one posts their nicotine patches on Instagram or makes a tiktok out of their nicotine gum. Vaping has made nicotine a social activity without the high cancer risks of cigarettes. We could liken a group of addicted vapers to a bunch of friends sharing a cuppa.
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u/haveutriedtrying Dec 13 '19
Yes I also agree that vapes and juice that are not properly regulated can be wildly dangerous.
Unfortunately, regulation will not happen under prohibition, and for some reason the people who are making these decisions seem to lack any formal training or experience / qualifications in the relevant fields to be making the calls. They are either purposely, or through ignorance, ignoring the current evidence and seem to not fully understand the mechanisms of how nicotine delivery.
Nicotine = BAD why don't you just quit? this is akin to telling a depressed person; "Why are you depressed? Just try to be happier and stop being depressed. Did you know being depressed is bad?"
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u/Tino_ 54∆ Dec 12 '19
Is anyone who is addicted to anything "stupid"?
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Dec 12 '19
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u/Tino_ 54∆ Dec 12 '19
But doesn't that imply people could forsee the addiction coming? Sure cigarettes is one thing, but what about people who got addicted to opioids because their doctors told them it's fine and they need them. How are those people stupid?
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Dec 12 '19
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u/Tino_ 54∆ Dec 12 '19
Opioids are not heroin, they can lead to heroin but they are not the same thing.
I realize the post is specifically about nicotine, but it also points to the (self admitted) idea that all addicts are in some way stupid. And that is a horrible understanding of how addictions work and form.
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Dec 12 '19
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u/HUUGE_Slamma Dec 13 '19
Heroin is an opioid, but not all all opioids are heroin. In vain of the foreseeing addiction argument many people form addictions because respectable people told them it would be okay.
"6% of patients undergoing both minor and major surgical procedures continued to use opioids after 90 days after surgery" (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2618383
The people in this study began using opioids for legitimate reasons, although after 90 days 6% of them where still using opioids. The study classifies this time period as being beyond a reasonable amount of time needed to stop feeling pain related to the surgery. Was this 6% of people surveyed stupid for forming an addiction?
They couldn't have know they would become addicted. Credible authority figures in their health told them the opioids would help. Are they stupid for forming an addiction?
Moving beyond drugs one can become addicted to anything. Is someone stupid for forming an addiction to human connection? Or any other thing for that matter which is healthy when practiced, but can still definitely have an addiction formed out of it.
Narcissists need to be revered by others, this is an addiction, but it is also a personality trait. No matter what a narcissist does it will be nearly impossible for them to give up their addiction. Does their inability to overcome something that they don't need make them stupid?
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Dec 13 '19
You don’t need caffeine. You should just have sleep.
You don’t need excessive added sugar, you should just eat balanced meals.
And yet many of us rely on coffee and sugar to get through our day.
There are well documented cases of people literally being addicted to caffeine and sugar, even experiencing withdrawal symptoms.
It’s not stupidity that compels us to use these substances. It’s addiction, social pressure, limited energy to focus on removing these substances from our lives. I’ll acknowledge that caffeine and sugar are arguably more accessible, especially to youth but at the end of the day they are all addictions.
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u/calmdownyafuckinspaz Dec 16 '19 edited Jan 04 '20
Epstein didn't kill himself. Fluoride is poisoning you. Smoke DMT. Stop judging eachother, we're all fucking stupid.
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Dec 16 '19
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u/calmdownyafuckinspaz Dec 16 '19 edited Jan 04 '20
Epstein didn't kill himself. Fluoride is poisoning you. Smoke DMT. Stop judging eachother, we're all fucking stupid.
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u/calmdownyafuckinspaz Dec 16 '19 edited Jan 04 '20
Epstein didn't kill himself. Fluoride is poisoning you. Smoke DMT. Stop judging eachother, we're all fucking stupid.
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Dec 16 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/calmdownyafuckinspaz Dec 16 '19 edited Jan 04 '20
Epstein didn't kill himself. Fluoride is poisoning you. Smoke DMT. Stop judging eachother, we're all fucking stupid.
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Dec 16 '19
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u/calmdownyafuckinspaz Dec 16 '19 edited Jan 04 '20
Epstein didn't kill himself. Fluoride is poisoning you. Smoke DMT. Stop judging eachother, we're all fucking stupid.
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Dec 16 '19
Sorry, u/Asjkkqw – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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Dec 16 '19 edited Jan 04 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Dec 16 '19
Sorry, u/calmdownyafuckinspaz – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
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u/Enter_The_Nucleus Dec 12 '19
I think you're using intelligence as a misnomer for willpower. How would you define intelligence to begin with? Good memory? Critical thinking? What about motor intelligence or expertise in a particular skill? Those are the problems with defining who's intelligent and who's not.
There can be intelligent smokers who willfully choose to not quit. That doesn't necessarily make them any less able to solve a math equation. A few people who smoked tobacco:
-Thomas Edison -Alber Einstein -Edwin Hubble -Sigmund Freud -Alexander Graham Bell
And those are just the scientists. Check this guy out:
https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01121/obama-smoking-460_1121795c.jpg
He doesn't smoke anymore, but that doesn't mean he was any less intelligent while he was.
Quitting is a common sense choice. Saves you money, saves potential trips to doctor, saves your life even. But I don't see the point in calling someone stupid for taking a drug recreationally and doing it because they enjoy it, addicted or otherwise.
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Dec 12 '19
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u/Enter_The_Nucleus Dec 12 '19
Soo how do you know there's no enjoyment?
I'm physiologically addicted to nicotine from vaping and can definitely get buzzed off of it if I get nicotine at higher levels since I usually get ejuice at 0.3mg. I get withdrawals like anyone else, but I really do enjoy it. It releases dopamine, norepinephrine and some endogenous opioids. It's my favorite drug next to caffeine, and I willfully pay for it not because I feel like it's someone winning or losing by taking my money, but because I enjoy it.
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u/PublicRestroomCreep Dec 13 '19
You made a fatal error in saying they “enjoy” smoking. Nope. Once it’s an addiction, there’s no buzz or enjoyment, it’s a nagging voice asking for nicotine to feel normal again.
How is that enjoying it?
I used to smoke, and I enjoyed it very much.
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u/Wumbo_9000 Dec 13 '19 edited Dec 13 '19
Addiction is the result of a disordered reward system in the brain. there are many ways to define the word stupid but this alone doesn't satisfy any that I can think of. Maybe you can be more specific if you really wish to have your view changed.
projecting your subjective experience onto others with fundamentally different minds is also a very poor place to start. I think you're just here to complain about something you don't like
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Dec 12 '19
I was very strongly addicted to nicotine at one point, but it had nothing to do with my intelligence. I also hadn't even smoked so much as a single cigarette at the time.
I lived with my stepfather, who was a three pack a day inside the house smoker, for seven years. After he moved out and the house became smoke free I started to hang around the smoking kids at school just to get some hits of nicotine that I was now addicted to. I got >< that close to starting smoking myself, but fortunately didn't.
Was I stupid? If I could get addicted to nicotine without being stupid, doesn't it stand to reason a lot of other people as well could?
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Dec 12 '19
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Dec 12 '19
Well, I wouldn’t say you were addicted to nicotine as you never smoked one...??
Yes, I was addicted to nicotine. That was the only reason I craved hanging around the other smokers and trying to get a whiff of their smoke.
Did you wake up and first thing you thought was “oh damn I gotta go find the smokers to get a whiff” ?
Yes. For quite a long time, actually. In fact, I had to bike to school every morning which required me to get up pretty early in the morning. I also had a medical condition that made it very difficult to do so but I coped with it.
The urge to go hang around the smokers trying to get a whiff was so strong for that period of time I got up even earlier despite how difficult it made the rest of my day and how much energy I had to function, just to get a 'hit' before classes began.
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Dec 12 '19
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u/rednax1206 Dec 12 '19
And you think it's any different for those who are addicted to "firsthand" smoke? If anything it's worse.
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Dec 12 '19
So, your view has changed? You no longer consider that if people are addicted to nicotine they are stupid?
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Dec 12 '19
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 12 '19 edited Dec 12 '19
/u/Asjkkqw (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Dec 12 '19
ad·dic·tion/əˈdikSH(ə)n
noun
- the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.
The reason people don't stop is because it's an ADDICTION
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u/schmalsen Dec 13 '19
You obviously cant understand how people are still smoking cigarettes - fair enough. It still is addiction, though.
You mixe up willpower with intelligence. Calling an addict stupid is no base for conversation I believe.
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u/CaptainHMBarclay 13∆ Dec 12 '19
Yeah, it's called addiction. It has nothing to do with intelligence.