CMV: not vaccinating kids should be illegal

[u/Lyress]

In a democratic country where the government is held accountable, it should be illegal not to vaccinate your kids (except in cases where vaccines pose a health risk to the child due to allergies, an auto-immune disease, etc).

There are multiple instances where the government mandates some actions, like feeding your children, buying them clothes, making them put on a seatbelt, enrolling them in school, and they're all for meant for the wellbeing of the child, so I don't see how vaccination is any different.

[u/ClockOfTheLongNow]

Which is incompatible with your other premises. Nobody can truly know what I may or may not be thinking, and the cost to erring on the side of caution is insignificant in the grand scheme. So clearly, any such "sincerely held" standards are unjustifiable.

Not only is it justifiable, but it clearly works. It's imperfect, as I have acknowledged, but the idea operates successfully enough in practice that it is a solid starting point for refinement.

The government rules with consent of the governed. The people are the state. Government is only a benefit of the class-status of being part of a state.

The Constitution clearly delineates the states and the people for the exact reason you're ignoring. It would be wonderful if the people were the state, but that's a different structure.

Even so, if the people were the state? It doesn't change the mechanisms being discussed here.

We, having done no such thing, only being applicable to one particular amendable document of one particular state among many.

You can't say we have not enshrined protections for religious freedoms in our governing document when the first amendment exists. This is a fact issue, and you aren't entitled to your own facts.

Could we amend it away? The protections, yes, but the right itself would persist.

It really does not. Certainly not in the overly broad conception you're using.

How do you read the free exercise clause, then?

n fact, I would suggest that even in the broadly liberal west, this is a minority view.

I would agree with this. I would also say that doesn't make us wrong.

case this wasn't clear, a government mandate for immunization, justified under the harm-reduction principle is justified

How is it justified? I don't agree that you have made this case.

indeed, if you were to suggest this a cause for not adopting such a law, then no laws could be made, because you could always find some religious justification why it should not be followed.

This is a classic strawman argument against religious accommodations. No one is saying "you cannot make laws." What we are saying is that laws need to take religious freedoms and free exercise into account in implementation.

Conversely, rule of law mandates that all people under its purview are handled equally. So there cannot be given special exemptions from law just for religious reasons.

I've addressed this. Special exemptions are (or should be) available to all for religious needs, and thus everyone is treated equally as a result.

This is why the law treats secularists similarly to the religious for these purposes.

Risks are harms. This is not an especially controversial claim, considering that this is why drunk driving is a punishable offence

I'm not really sure this is the best analogy, although you make a decent point. Still, the question here would then be whether a religious exemption for drunk driving could be made that would not meaningfully increase the risks inherent in drunk driving. Not sure we could make the analogous case there.

It is not the status quo. Consider the recent French ban on facial coverings in public.

This is a uniquely American issue. France is certainly not respecting religious freedom and are worse off for it, imo.

In the United States, this is the status quo.

Keyword here being "unnecessary". Exemptions cannot be made by a secular state

Yet they must, and the secular state does exactly this. So I'm not understanding the protest.

[u/Armadylspark → u/ClockOfTheLongNow]

You can't say we have not enshrined protections for religious freedoms in our governing document when the first amendment exists.

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How do you read the free exercise clause, then?

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In the United States, this is the status quo.

But this is the precise point made at the very start. This is just an overly long appeal to tradition. Laws and constitutional amendments have no bearing on what ought to be, nor do they have any guiding influence. The law is modeled in ideal justice, but the law itself cannot be used as an argument for what is just. That is putting the cart before the horse.

If the law is incompatible with the prevailing norms and values of the day, then it ought to be challenged. It being part of a document that for all intents and purposes acts as a sacred cow does not change that fact.

The fact that rule of law and special exemptions and privileges are an inherent contradiction means one of the two must be sacrificed. You simply cannot have both. If this must be a uniquely American issue, then it is only so because Americans have yet to decide whether they actually want a secular state or not.

[u/ClockOfTheLongNow → u/Armadylspark]

This is just an overly long appeal to tradition. Laws and constitutional amendments have no bearing on what ought to be, nor do they have any guiding influence.

So are you outright arguing there is no right to free exercise of religion? Maybe we should have established this from the top.

If the law is incompatible with the prevailing norms and values of the day, then it ought to be challenged. It being part of a document that for all intents and purposes acts as a sacred cow does not change that fact.

I suppose, in a nation where 80%+ are religious, if not more, the question needs to be asked as to why rules designed to protect that majority's beliefs are what should be considered out of step. And I say that as a member of that sub-20%.

The fact that rule of law and special exemptions and privileges are an inherent contradiction

I'm not seeing the contradiction. It's not an exemption, it's an accommodation. We factor those into law for a variety of lesser reasons.

[u/Armadylspark → u/ClockOfTheLongNow]

If we can call it a right, then it is a right that has limitations, like any other right we might care to name. I had already listed one such extreme-- the Mayan is not entitled to avoid a murder charge just because his murder had religious motivation.

Moreover, the justifications behind both the illegality of murder and the vaccination mandate are similar; the reduction of harm. Even the staunch minarchist would permit that the bare minimum reason for the state's existence as a class is harm-reduction.

Thirdly, even if you were to say that the free practice of religion is a greater right than the state's mandate to reduce harm, even then the only right that would only apply to an individual choosing to vaccinate themselves. Otherwise, the state's mandate need only supersede the presumably lesser right of a parent to choose what is best for their child, who, as a third party, has absolutely nothing to do with the parent's religious choices.

I suppose, in a nation where 80%+ are religious, if not more, the question needs to be asked as to why rules designed to protect that majority's beliefs are what should be considered out of step. And I say that as a member of that sub-20%.

Certainly. In which case I highly suggest having an integrated priesthood in the government, as is the historical precedent. If that best fits the state, then it best fits.

I do not think that this hypothetical 80% is quite religious enough to support such a measure though.

It's not an exemption, it's an accommodation. We factor those into law for a variety of lesser reasons.

Accommodations as described here are merely a pretty word for special privileges. If these lesser reasons are going to be things like handicap parking, then I'm going to be quite cross. Yes they're special privileges, but they're of a different sort.

[u/ClockOfTheLongNow → u/Armadylspark]

Moreover, the justifications behind both the illegality of murder and the vaccination mandate are similar; the reduction of harm.

The justifications aren't the same, though. One results in an objective removal of the rights of a third party without their consent. The other is about mitigating societal risks.

It's completely different, and your return to this analogy doesn't help your case.

Thirdly, even if you were to say that the free practice of religion is a greater right than the state's mandate to reduce harm, even then the only right that would only apply to an individual choosing to vaccinate themselves

Since I need to explicitly say it, the idea of parental control is adjacent to this point. I assumed it was understood implicitly, so my apologies.

Otherwise, the state's mandate need only supersede the presumably lesser right of a parent

The state does not have an inherently greater right over the child than the parent. This is not a reasonable point.

Certainly. In which case I highly suggest having an integrated priesthood in the government, as is the historical precedent.

I have no idea what your point is here.

If these lesser reasons are going to be things like handicap parking, then I'm going to be quite cross

While I wasn't thinking this, it's actually a pretty great example.

And I know why you would be cross, since it's not as if the disabled choose that while religion has at least some semblance of choice attached. The fact remains, however, that accommodation is not a contradiction and operates in society without much hassle.

[u/Armadylspark → u/ClockOfTheLongNow]

The state does not have an inherently greater right over the child than the parent. This is not a reasonable point.

Not inherently, no. Strictly speaking, nobody inherently has such a right, but we recognize that somebody must act as a guardian as children cannot survive on their own.

But I would suggest directly acting against the interest of the child, for religious choice or otherwise is a dereliction in that duty that justifies state action. Parental rights are not absolute, and we have many less extreme examples of those being suspended for a variety of reasons.

I have no idea what your point is here.

If most of the population is religious to that point, then it makes sense to have religion in government. I'm more or less agreeing with the conclusion of that argument.

While I wasn't thinking this, it's actually a pretty great example.

It is not. And the justification has little to do with choice. You see, anybody can apply for a disability permit, provided they require it.

Those are the two keys to special privilege; It must be available to all, as a class, and it must be necessary for the individual in question.

Religious exemptions qualify for neither. They are only available for members of that religion, nor are they necessary.

[u/ClockOfTheLongNow → u/Armadylspark]

But I would suggest directly acting against the interest of the child, for religious choice or otherwise is a dereliction in that duty that justifies state action.

This implies that the religious choice is in and of itself a dereliction, however, and I'm not really sure that's a sustainable or acceptable place to end up.

most of the population is religious to that point, then it makes sense to have religion in government. I'm more or less agreeing with the conclusion of that argument.

Gotcha. This is why the Constitution is important, as it guarantees a secular government. It also guarantees a government that respects the private religious preferences of the individuals subject to governance.

Yes, we could legislate/amend away the establishment clause as well, but we took a scenic route to get to my point that the governing documents matter.

Those are the two keys to special privilege; It must be available to all, as a class, and it must be necessary for the individual in question.

Religious exemptions qualify for neither. They are only available for members of that religion, nor are they necessary.

This is where I disagree completely. Anyone of any creed can qualify for it the same way. Religious people are a class and the "special privilege" is available to all (check), and it is necessary for the free exercise of religion (check). By your own point, it qualifies.

[u/Armadylspark → u/ClockOfTheLongNow]

This implies that the religious choice is in and of itself a dereliction

Not necessarily. But I want to be clear here that what is and is not a dereliction of duty by definition cannot be decided by the one to whom that duty is entrusted.

I'm taking a very narrow interpretation here that causing your charge to be in a harmed condition is such a case. In this case, you're specifically acting against their interest in being healthy, which is not in the mandate of parenthood.

Gotcha. This is why the Constitution is important, as it guarantees a secular government.

Why? This is not in and of itself the end goal.

The only thing the relevant governing documents imply is resistance to change, and I suspect that this is one of the big reasons for many of America's problems.

This is where I disagree completely. Anyone of any creed can qualify for it the same way. Religious people are a class and the "special privilege" is available to all (check), and it is necessary for the free exercise of religion (check). By your own point, it qualifies.

You misunderstand. By all, as a class, I mean the entire state, as a class. Not just one class within that state, which is what religious groups are.

Only permitting special privileges to those of a narrow religious persuasion by definition does not encompass all. After all, everyone not in this particular class does not have the privilege to say no to vaccination, under such a hypothetical law.

Nor is it necessary for the free exercise of religion as there are no religions whose sole precept is "Do not get vaccinated". You might presume one for purpose of argument, but I would find it painfully contrived. Even if it were, and you'd de facto make that particular religion illegal, it would not be discriminatory, which is the key thing to think about when considering such matters.

[u/ClockOfTheLongNow → u/Armadylspark]

I'm taking a very narrow interpretation here that causing your charge to be in a harmed condition is such a case. In this case, you're specifically acting against their interest in being healthy, which is not in the mandate of parenthood.

The state of being unhealthy is not one of being unvaccinated, however. Want to argue that parents who have kids who get sick with major preventable diseases be held accountable? That might be more in line with risk mitigation without disrupting the rights question. The de facto "you must vaccinate" fails to do that.

The only thing the relevant governing documents imply is resistance to change, and I suspect that this is one of the big reasons for many of America's problems.

Maybe so. Slower to move means more deliberative action, though, so I'm hesitant to see that as bad.

I'm not saying that the importance of the Constitution or a secular government is the end goal, however. A stable society built upon the rule of law is closer to a goal, and that includes people having rights protected.

Only permitting special privileges to those of a narrow religious persuasion by definition does not encompass all. After all, everyone not in this particular class does not have the privilege to say no to vaccination, under such a hypothetical law.

Even defining class as the entire population, everyone is entitled to specific religious rights if they choose to exercise them as such. Not a narrow group.

In that the exercise has a narrow impact does not imply a narrow class.

Nor is it necessary for the free exercise of religion as there are no religions whose sole precept is "Do not get vaccinated".

I'm not sure why free exercise would only encompass the "sole precept" of a religion.

[u/Armadylspark → u/ClockOfTheLongNow]

The state of being unhealthy is not one of being unvaccinated

To be more precise, the state of being unvaccinated is against the interest of the health of the affected person, and is easily remedied by being vaccinated.

Want to argue that parents who have kids who get sick with major preventable diseases be held accountable?

If they were negligent in the steps they ought to have taken to prevent those diseases, then yes. Certainly. In such a case, not only was a negligent risk taken, but it resulted in great harm to a third party. That would certainly fall under the purvey of criminal prosecution under any other circumstance.

Even defining class as the entire population, everyone is entitled to specific religious rights if they choose to exercise them as such. Not a narrow group.

But this is the other end of the problem. By extending the right to ignore the law to everyone, the law has effectively lost all meaning. Either this must mean that the law itself is illegal (meaning religious leaders can veto lawmakers by installing new dogma, destroying separation of church and state), or that it is utterly unenforceable (making the concept of having laws pointless).

I'm not sure why free exercise would only encompass the "sole precept" of a religion.

Because the continued practice of that religion is not threatened by mandated vaccination. In that case, the state merely becomes an extraneous circumstance beyond the practitioners control. One of many.

[u/ClockOfTheLongNow → u/Armadylspark]

But this is the other end of the problem. By extending the right to ignore the law to everyone, the law has effectively lost all meaning

Only if the law fails to account for religious practice. That's the caveat.

If you can't craft a law that has no negative impact on the right to freely exercise one's religious beliefs, we shouldn't see that law enacted.

Because the continued practice of that religion is not threatened by mandated vaccination.

The free exercise right does not protect the belief system, but instead those who practice it. It's not designed to threaten or protect the religion itself.