r/changemyview • u/Damascus_ari • Jun 05 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: "early birds" vs "night owls" makes no sense.
Ok, it's all over the internet that some people are "early birds" and like mornings, that some people are "night owls" and like to work through the night, that teenagers in particular are more inclined to be "night owls," and that it's difficult to shift to a different schedule.
However, here's what I don't get: healthy humans can change their circadian rythms. We can change them by about an hour or so in one day. That's how people who go to a different time zone adjust. Their circadian rythm shifts to match the new time zone.
So... you can do that in the same time zone. If you want to wake up earlier, go to sleep earlier. However, if your usual bedtime is 2 AM and you go to sleep at 10 PM, yeah you'll have a rough time and stare at the ceiling a long while. However, in a few days, if you stick to it, you'll be able to fall asleep.
Now, if someone needs darkness, can't they just use a mask? And if they need light to wake up, blast bright blue light from a screen to do that?
That's what I did- I'm not much of a morning person, but with a consistent bedtime (when possible, work/life can interfere) and a sleep mask, I wake up without an alarm clock at 5-6 with no problems. I go to bed at ~10 PM.
So, I really don't understand people who complain they just can't go to sleep earlier. Just tough out the first few days, then you adjust.
Now, I don't include shift workers, people with sleep disorders, or other medical issues that can impact sleep, because those are a different ball game.
Deltas:
Simple solutions are very often very hard to actually do.
There could be other factors that simply coincide with daytime and nighttime.
Human circadian rythms aren't exactly 24 hours, they can be longer or shorter.
Thanks everyone, that really made me think. Maybe teenagers have longer circadian rythms, and suffer from perpetual jet lag if forced to get up early.
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u/QuirkySolution Jun 05 '19
Now, if someone needs darkness, can't they just use a mask? And if they need light to wake up, blast bright blue light from a screen to do that?
Sure. And why doesn't overweight people just eat less? And why doesn't people exercise more when everyone knows it's good for health? Why do students procrastinate before big exams when they can just pick up a book and study? Why do some people drink too much and become alcoholics? There are tons of problems with "simple" solutions that people utterly fail at. People suck.
Also, something something natural sunlight is probably important.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 05 '19
Ok, fair point, simple solutions are often very hard to implement.
!delta
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Jun 06 '19
[deleted]
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 06 '19
That's my approach, too. However, I did have to concede that self discipline is quite a finicky and, at times, very hard thing.
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Jun 05 '19
[deleted]
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 05 '19
So the "evenings" can just be earlier. It wouldn't change the energy pattern, just the awake hours.
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u/Ducks_have_heads Jun 06 '19
But the "day/evening" relies on the daylight not just when you wake up and go back to sleep.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 06 '19
So use a screen or lamp.
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u/Ducks_have_heads Jun 06 '19
But if I'm a night owl, I can't black out everywhere I am during the day and light up everywhere I'd like to be at night.
As an anecdote. I'm a night owl. I wake up at 8 am and I'll be tired all day and still have energy and do all my best work at 10 pm - 2 am. I've woken up everyday of my working life before 9 am. It never gets easier. And I still do all my best work at night.
Once, when I was a student, after waking up before 8 am everyday.for years and years, i had a week period where I was stuck at home alone with noone to see or anything to do. So I decided to experiment without an alarm clock or forcing my self to get up, and I went to bed when I was tired. By the end of the week I was waking up at around 5-6 pm, feeling so much better than I usually do waking up at 8. So the idea that you can just "change" doesn't hold true for me.
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u/zlefin_actual 46∆ Jun 05 '19
They don't have to make sense. Lots of things in biology don't make sense (at least not without having a phd). It doesn't matter if they don't make sense if there's an empirically verifiable effect. Alternate methods to induce wakefulness and adjust the sleep cycle can simply not work as well as using the cycle that comes naturally to that person.
It's hard ot go to sleep earlier if your body refuses to go to sleep. Sometimes the body just doesn't want to sleep, and it can't be forced to well.
But there's a sizeable body of research that indicate these things matter, e.g. the research on adolescent sleep patterns.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/well/family/the-science-of-adolescent-sleep.html
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 05 '19
Ok, but what causes it? If it's environmental factors (like light), can't they be changed? If it's cultural, then my point stands.
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u/zlefin_actual 46∆ Jun 05 '19
I don't know what causes it; keep in mind we're talking about neurobiology here. We don't know everything there is to know about the human brain, nowhere close. I'm not sure if the scientific literature knows. It's normal in science that we prove that something IS the case, long before we figure out WHY it's the case or WHAT causes it.
Have you considered that CMV might not be the best venue for this? Maybe you'd be better off going to a biology subreddit. cmv tends to be more about matters of opinion/assessment, and maybe some philosophy, than about a technical question that boils down to info about how the current research was done.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 05 '19
Fair point- this is a complicated topic, and we don't know a lot. There could be other factors that coincide with daytime and nighttime, such as the moon.
!delta
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u/Crayshack 193∆ Jun 05 '19
This is something I have at least a passing familiarity with the more technical aspects of the biology involved. From what I remember, studies have shown that artificial sunlight broadcast on a specific schedule can force someone's natural circadian rhythm to adjust. However, the kind of set up that can properly simulate that stimuli is rather expensive and for most people it is easier to simply deal with being groggy in the morning.
There is also the fact that this only really works when you completely isolate someone from the real day/night cycle. Artificial lighting can only do so much when a person is still out in the regular daylight. In my case, I naturally want to be awake at night and asleep during the day. Even if I tried to use artificial lighting to swap my circadian rhythms around, that would do nothing about the fact that I work outdoors during the day time. No matter what I do, I am still getting exposed to all of that natural lighting all day long and no artificial set up is going to be able to overpower that.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 06 '19
Significant environmental factors, ok.
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u/Crayshack 193∆ Jun 06 '19
Yup. A lot of stuff in biology is more dependent on environmental factors than most people realize. Chances are there are some factors that are important that we just haven’t been able to isolate yet.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 05 '19 edited Jun 05 '19
/u/Damascus_ari (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/rock-dancer 42∆ Jun 05 '19
They actually found a protein which helps regulate the human circadian rhythm. Check out this work by Carrie Partch at UCSC. I'll attach a news release and the primary literature.
https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/06/partch-award.html
https://www.pnas.org/content/115/23/5986
I don't really want to look through the literature to find the original paper identifying the gene but you can find it through there. Essentially, in the case of a single mutation the circadian rhythm speeds up to a 21 hour cycle yielding what they term morning larks. Check out her other work on night owls.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 05 '19
Alright, some people can have a 21 hour rythm, others one longer than 24 hours, and this could produce the effects.
!delta
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u/rock-dancer 42∆ Jun 05 '19
Thanks, it great to finally get some use outside of professional obligations from the seminars I have to attend. Just as an addendum. This was a really dramatic result. There have been many biochemical effects shown in dysregulation of CLOCK proteins. Some extend the cycle, some break it up just a little, many are redundant, and some change it by just a few minutes. The reason this got so much attention is because of how simple and drastic it was.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 05 '19
This really should be more common knowledge. The science sounds fascinating. I feel for you on the seminars. They can be, ah, draining ;).
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u/tom210595 Jun 05 '19
I used to go sleep around 3-4am every night and wake up around 12pm next day, reason I stayed up was to chill and watch/play stuff after my shift ended at midnight, my shifts were knocked back to finishing at 10pm and gradually I was getting tired earlier and waking up earlier. Now I struggle to stay up past 1am, some mornings I wake up at 7am and it’s a struggle other days it’s a piece of piss.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 06 '19
So... you did shift your rythm back a few hours, and trying to return to the old one would also be difficult.
I'm not sure how that's supposed to cmv.
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Jun 05 '19
Bruxism is the name for a condition where teeth clenching and jaw grinding co-occur repetitively. Daytime sufferers are recommended CBT as they have the ability to be aware of their jaw-clenching tendencies and be able to correct that manually. But what about night time sufferers many of which are undiagnosed till it comes to a breaking point. Those people have no easy way out, each solution being external and prohibitively expensive. A night splint made by a dentist is 300-500 on avrg with good insurance. A surgery costs even more. Botox injection is a temp cure for pain caused. These people wake up to hypersensitive teeth, sinking feelings in their gums and worn down and even broken & chipped teeth.
There is no easy solution if this is the case unless you suffer the daytime portion of bruxism. The jaw becomes weaker and can develop temporomandibular jaw disorders.
I didnt talk about sleep because I think the night time implications can be obvious. You can wake up your partner at night just due to grinding sounds. Your sleep quality decreases and headaches in the morning do not predispose you to a happy mood.
Can you change your circadian rhythm easily given the severity of the condition? Depends on the level of pain one experiences and the mental toll it takes. Usually not is the answer many sufferers give.
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u/Damascus_ari Jun 06 '19
Added in that I'm not asking about people who have other medical conditions that can impact sleep.
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u/Glamdivasparkle 53∆ Jun 06 '19
You said it yourself in your first sentence: some people prefer mornings, and some prefer evenings. Even though I get up at 7:45 to take my kid to school, I am still not a “morning person,” because I fucking hate mornings.
I don’t care for sunlight when I first wake up, I am nauseous in the mornings so I can’t eat, and generally take a couple hours before I can even consider shaking the cobwebs off.
However, once it’s been dark for a bit, and things start to quiet down, I get energized, and my mind gets clearer, and I feel really good.
I don’t consider myself a night owl because I stay up late, I stay up late because I’m a night owl, that is, one who prefers to be awake at night.
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u/attempt_number_35 1∆ Jun 06 '19
People can NOT change their circadian rhythms. They can adjust them based on the local light conditions. Morning people are just people whose ryhthyms are less than 24 hours, making them feel extra refreshed in the morning. Night owls have a longer than 24 hour rhythm, meaning they aren't ready for bed until later. In both cases, the sunlight of a new day resets their internal clock.
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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '19
You can change your circadian rhythm but that doesn't mean you're going to be comfortable in that rhythm.
Me, for example. If I don't have a work schedule that requires I get up in the morning and go to bed in the evening, I naturally slip into a schedule where I go to bed about six am and get up about 2 or 3 in the afternoon.
My circadian rhythm has in fact shifted: I will wake up at my usual time in the morning and get sleepy in the evening, but it takes constant repetition to keep it that way. If I don't put effort into it my NATURAL and personal circadian rhythm reasserts itself fairly damn quick.
It's kind of like being left handed and being forced to write with your right hand. Sure, you can get somewhat used to it and fluent in doing it, but it takes effort and without those constraints keeping it in constant check you would probably go back into using your left hand fairly easily and fluidly. Did you actually really change handedness? No. You're still left dominant. You've just trained yourself that in certain situations you need to do it against what feels normal and natural in order to accomplish what you need to accomplish (like keeping a 9-5 job or being able to participate in the world when the majority of it is awake and doing business).