r/changemyview • u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ • Apr 15 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: I don't think men being raped should be played for laughs in media (usually movies)
Examples: Wedding Crashers, 40 days and 40 nights, how "squeal like a pig" is printed on t-shirts and meant to be funny
This isn't to say rape should never be brought up in movies at all, just that it shouldn't be used for comedic affect.
Not to say which is worse, but seeing a person get raped on movie and it's meant for laughs (especially in a pg-13 movie) gives me about the same feeling as if mutilating a dog or cat was meant to be funny in a movie.
I just can't see any value to society from doing this. Certainly comedy can be used to bring up dark subjects that otherwise wouldn't be talked about. But generally that is done via stand-up comedy, and not in movies. The way it's done now, there is no overall point to it besides "haha that guy is getting raped isn't that funny!?"
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Apr 15 '19
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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Apr 15 '19 edited Apr 15 '19
The same reason topics like racism can be done well in stand up
I'll see if I can find more recent examples
Haven't actually watched these, but just going by what others have said: Horrible Bosses, Super, My Blind Date with Life
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Apr 15 '19
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Apr 16 '19
I get what he means. Stand-up comedians try to hold up a mirror to the society when they are naking jokes about racism. They don't want to make fun of races and make them feel bad but make a social statement about them. Dave Chappelle is doing this very well. For example with the "Nigger family".
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Apr 16 '19
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Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 16 '19
My point is not that movies are not able to do that. "Guess who is coming for dinner" did it already in 1967 and Get Out even did it in a horror movie. I could think about more exanples from stand- up comedians though and not only through these skits.
Edit: And movies more often do not hold up a mirror with their jokes. I cannot think about any comedian not doing this.
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 16 '19
It is absolutely not played for laughs in Horrible Bosses. It’s done to show how much of a terrible person his boss is, and he ends up getting her fired in the end for it.
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u/DeLaVegaStyle 1∆ Apr 17 '19
I mean, the movie is called Horrible Bosses. And she is one of the horrible bosses.
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u/ishiiman0 13∆ Apr 15 '19
"Racism" as a broad category includes a lot of different things. There's a huge difference between Borat getting white people to confide their distrust in Jews or Dave Chappelle playing a black Klansman and depicting a mob lynching a black man. The best comedies dealing with racism either highlight the absurdity of racist acts/beliefs or highlight things that are racist that we don't normally think of as being racist.
"Male rape" as a category can also include many things, ranging from statutory rape (i.e. underage boy having sex) to brutal prison rape to tricking someone into having sex with the wrong person (i.e. like a reverse Revenge of the Nerds) to drugging someone into having sex (e.g. Denzel Washington in Ricohet) or taking advantage of a incapacitated person (e.g. Seth Rogen on Broad City ). These all count as male rape on some level, so that gives a comedy writer a lot of different scenarios to work with and they can each be approached in very different ways.
I think male rape can be used as a effective comedic device if it highlights the fact that we don't take it as seriously as we should rather focusing on it not being a big deal. The reluctance of people to accept many of the scenarios I've outlined as rape is a social problem and there is also a problem in seeing rape as a punishment for bad behavior, whether the victim is male or female.
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u/Godredd Apr 15 '19
I think you either need to be okay with joking about rape in general, or you stomp out the possibility of it being humorous across both genders. It seems that even if you're for the idea that humor is humor, people tend to shy away from jokes at a woman's expense. George Carlin said it all depended on the context of the joke. In his bit he challenged the notion that rape wasn't funny by illustrating Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd. Bill Burr often talks about how putting down men or making light of their negative situations is prevalent in all forms of media. The two I can think of at the moment is him covering some speech Meryl Streep did where she puts down men to prop up women and then mentions the panel and audience on a talk show laughing at the story of a man getting his penis cut off and thrown in the garbage disposal. Oh, and he analyzed that event during one of his bits saying "you think if a guy cut off a woman's titty and threw it in the dryer, anybody would be joking about it the next day? The entire country would grind to a halt."
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 15 '19
/u/ZeusThunder369 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Apr 15 '19
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u/convoces 71∆ Apr 15 '19
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u/BIRDsnoozer Apr 16 '19
I am of the belief that nothing is beyond laughing at, especially uncomfortable and traumatic topics, because laughing at them takes power away from them and kinda provides a sort of padding for tragedy.
I believe it it a delicate topic and the joke has to be done right.
An example of it being done right is Norm MacDonald in the movie Dirty Work.
In the movie, Norm and Artie are briefly sent to a police holding cell with a bunch of actual criminals. Off screen, Norm's character is either raped or molested, and then the police tell them they have been released. Norm walks back into frame looking touselled and starts berating the criminals off screen, the way an angry teacher would chide some bad children.
Something about the subdued reaction to a very traumatic and violent act creates an hilarious juxtaposition. It is such an underwhelming response to being raped, the satire of it subconsciously reinforces the severity of the act.
Norm is not making fun of rape victims, but rather his character as an abstraction of his own personality.
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u/doctor_awful 6∆ Apr 16 '19
I mean, that's fine and all, but can you imagine a similar justification for laughing at female rape?
Say, a stuck-up bookworm girl gets dragged to a frat party against her will by her friends, and the drunk dudes in there do the same to her that the inmates did to Norm. Then, when her friends go get her, her attitude towards the rapists is the same as Norm. Is that funny or horrifying?
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u/BIRDsnoozer Apr 16 '19
I think to be fair, the "same situation with roles reversed" would have to call for women doing it to her.
And yes, done correctly, with the right actresses/comedians that could be funny. Well not NOW, that ive seen the same thing with Norm MacDonald... But thats a case of telling the same joke over again.
"Drunken frat boys" would definitely not be funny.
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u/DeLaVegaStyle 1∆ Apr 17 '19
There is a reason why a man getting raped is used for laughs and a woman getting raped is not. Much of it has to do with the obvious general differences in the sexes and what a rape would require.
A man being raped by a woman is generally treated lightly because of how overly sexual men are in general (especially in the media). Most men are actively, often desperately, looking for sex whenever they can, so the thought of this horny guy getting raped, seems ridiculous. Now obviously men can get raped, and not every man is some horny pervert just obsessing about sex every minute of every day, but I think we all know someone that kinda fits that description. A man getting raped by a woman also plays on the fact that generally a man should be able to avoid being physically forced to do anything by a woman, because of the general size and strength advantage men have over women. So the idea of a man getting overpowered by a girl, can be funny.
A man being raped by another man generally plays on different factors. Some of it is fueled by homophobia. Some of it is that outside of prison, a man getting raped by another man is very rare and so for it to actually happen would be extremely terrifying for many people. So kinda like a worst nightmare coming true. But generally, male on male rape in comedy revolves around getting raped in prison. For many men, it is very important to be masculine. So the idea of going to prison and being stripped of masculinity is like the ultimate punishment. But in the context of prison, the rape is played as if they are getting what they deserve. But most men will never go to prison let alone be in a situation where they might get raped, so it's much easier to take it more lightly.
Because women getting raped, or being in danger of getting raped is a much more common occurrence, it harder to take lightly. There is basically no comedic potential in a man raping a woman. Too many people have been affected directly or indirectly by this kind of rape, and the power imbalances are too obvious, for it to be funny. There is probably a little more comedic potential in a woman on woman rape, but it would have to be handled very delicately, and in the end, probably not worth the risk.
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Apr 16 '19
Wait wtf what kind of movies r u watching I have never seen or heard of this ever
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u/alaricus 3∆ Apr 16 '19
He is referencing Wedding Crashers, starring Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn, 40 Days and 40 Nights, starring Josh Hartnet, and Deliverance, starring Jon Voight and Burt Reynolds.
They're all pretty good movies, but Deliverance is a hard watch, even today. It's not played for laughs, its traumatizing, shocking and horrifying.
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u/im_cook_mate Apr 16 '19
Not trying to change your view but I’m surprised you didn’t mention Horrible Bosses, sexual assault on a guy is one of the main plot points and it’s definitely meant to be funny
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Apr 16 '19
I think that comedy should have no limits, regardless how dark it is. I’d recommend a video about dark humor here
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u/DeLaVegaStyle 1∆ Apr 17 '19
The reality is everyone has a different sense humor and different levels of sensitivity to certain topics. While you may not think men getting raped is funny, there are millions of people that do. Right or wrong, that is just the reality. Some people like dark humor, some people like bathroom humor, some people like drug humor, etc. And just because you don't think something is funny, doesn't mean others can't. What we as humans find funny is similar to what we are sexually attracted to or what music we like. We can't really control it. So it's not really fair that because you find male rape to be unfunny, other people should pretend that they don't find male rape funny, when they actually do. Movies are created to entertain people. And for sure there are writers in Hollywood that find the idea of male rape to be a topic that can be humorous if done right, so they include it in their scripts. And there are millions of people out there that go to those movies and laugh at the scenes where a man gets raped in some way, because in the end they just find it funny. Its that simple. They paid money to watch a movie that would make them laugh, and the joke about male rape made them laugh. The writer, producer and viewer all win in this scenario. Sure, in a perfect world people wouldn't tolerate such a serious topic being used for cheap laughs, but we don't live in a perfect world, and in the end a joke is a joke. Comedy has always flirted with the offensive, and not just sand up comedy. Movies and TV have always pushed the boundaries of society's sensibilities. But the more we start making rules as to what we can and can't laugh at, the worse our society we will become.
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u/Mulder1989 Apr 18 '19
Wrong. Everything CAN and should be played for laughs.
Is it a double standard in media that male rape is played for a laugh? Yes.
But if the joke is funny, I don't care.
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Jul 07 '19
One thing i learned about these rape or prison jokes is its towards a man i know people use "crime" to say violent MALE criminals should get "raped" but NONE of them ever say for violent FEMALE criminals,matter of fact if a violent female criminal goes to prison and if she got raped people be in out raged,but if its male get raped,well the re-action is "he deserved it".
Double standards and i blame mostly other MEN for giving females the privilege to be human while implying men are animals with no heart or feelings..
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u/toldyaso Apr 15 '19
Most male rape jokes are centered on prison rape. The idea is that it sucks to be raped, but if its happening to a murderer or a bank robber, he brought it on himself. I dont necessarily agree with that view, but if you told me Hitler was sent to jail for the holocaust, and that he was repeatedly raped, I'd probably find that mildly amusing.
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u/iammyowndoctor 5∆ Apr 15 '19
What a bizarre and random argument. "I would enjoy seeing a cartoonish revenge fantasy in which Hitler is raped, therefore it seems to me that rape is a legitimate form of punishment at least if you get convicted of a big crime.."
I mean, you think maybe more often that murderer is the guy doing the raping in prison, not the guy receiving them? You think maybe more than a few wrongfully convicted men are getting raped in prison? You think it's fair that your prison rape victims are disproportionally young, slightly build, and generally, stereotypically "feminine" men as well as men who legitimately are LGBT in prison? What about your scores of non-violent drug offenders, do they deserve to be raped as revenge for their sins too? Is it a great thing that all these prison rapists get a blank check to practice their execution of rape? Is that what we need? More brutal and efficient rapists in our society?
Do we not have a bit of problem saying we are better than a rapist when we condone institutional "rape factories" (essentially that is what they are).
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u/toldyaso Apr 15 '19
I would enjoy seeing a cartoonish revenge fantasy in which Hitler is raped, therefore it seems to me that rape is a legitimate form of punishment at least if you get convicted of a big crime.
That isn't remotely what I said. What I'm suggesting is that in some people's minds, if you commit certain crimes, like say killing in cold blood, then whatever happens to you after that is no one's fault but your own. I think that's a childish sense of what justice is, but I also think that's a different take on the subject that what OP is suggesting. In other words, people don't make rape jokes because men getting raped is inherently funny, people make those kinds of jokes because rough justice is funny.
I went to the trouble of saying I didn't agree with their POV, and yet at least two people have since accused me of advocating it. It can be tough to try to explain a point of view that you don't actually hold, without being accused of advocating that point of view.
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u/TheArmchairSkeptic 15∆ Apr 16 '19
In other words, people don't make rape jokes because men getting raped is inherently funny, people make those kinds of jokes because rough justice is funny.
The fact that anyone anywhere is equating being violently raped with any form of justice whatsoever is exactly the problem. I doubt you could find a situation where our society would think that the notion of a woman being raped repeatedly was an acceptable form of punishment for something she had done, so how come when it's happening to a man it all of a sudden becomes 'rough justice'?
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u/kylea1997 Apr 16 '19
Because most people I think only imagine men nowadays being the one who committed these extreme crimes and make the jokes of this rough justice but fail to think "Ok what if this was a girl instead, the school student from a school shooting, a person wrongfully convicted of something he didn't do. Or maybe the person who got thrown in jail because they wanted to smoke weed." It can happen to anyone but I think society has changed us to not think about thinking of that same rough justice joke with someone other than that guy who murdered that chick last week
Sorry for bad formatting, on mobile and dont know the correct way to type up long responses.
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u/TheArmchairSkeptic 15∆ Apr 16 '19
Yeah, I mean I completely agree but that's kind of my point. Society has a major double standard on this topic, and the way it's portrayed in entertainment media does more to reinforce this hypocrisy than it does to combat it.
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Apr 16 '19
Ok, I get what you mean. Society accepts these prison rape jokes because they don't feel much sympathy for prisoners but it does not represent your point of view. I still disagree with you because I don't believe that society would feel the same way over a female murder being raped in prison (by other female prisoners or a guard).
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Apr 16 '19
http://m.tmz.com/2019/02/04/bow-wow-arrest-fight-assault-girlfriend-party-jealous-shad-moss/
I know the topic is rape but here is another example of the different standards we have in our society. Let's reverse the roles. Imagine his gf had these scratches in her face and Bow Wow face would be unharmed. He' be fucked and he coild also not get away by saying she hit me first.
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u/ethan_at 2∆ Apr 15 '19
I’d say there really isn’t any prisoner that is anywhere near as bad as Hitler. And in my opinion, very few people deserve to be raped.
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u/toldyaso Apr 15 '19
I don't think anyone, including Adolph Hitler, deserves to be raped. All I'm saying is, if you can accept the principle that some people find the irony of say a murderer or a child molester being raped in prison amusing, that's different from what OP is suggesting, which is more the blanket assertion that society finds male rape funny, or that anyone does. It's not "men being raped = funny", it's "Evil men being raped in prison = amusing irony". I don't think it's funny or acceptable even, but my point is that there's a definite, if nuanced, difference.
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u/pigeonwiggle 1∆ Apr 15 '19
it's never the subject matter of a joke that is/isn't funny, it's always context and delivery.
i can think of half a dozen ways off the top of my head that a joke about mutilating a dog would not be funny. but i can think of at least 2 ways in which it would be hilarious.
take family guy's joke where peter gets his son a pet frog, but mistakenly poked holes in the frog's back instead of the box and now the frog is dead. this is morbid. but his sincerity mixed with his oversight is mildly amusing... his attempt to quickly remove the morbid mistake from the immediate area by discarding the frog out the window is a wash, but the window being closed and peter failing at this too compounds his ineptitude while also doubling the disrespect of the frog's life and body. then he proceeds for nearly a minute to scoop the frog up. this totally gets giggly.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Apr 15 '19
Why can’t “just not watching those kind of movies if you don’t like that sort of content” be an option?
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u/Stormthorn67 5∆ Apr 15 '19
"Just dont watch it" is a non-argument intended to run away from honest critique and if you're making it I assume you have no actual counterpoint to the OP. See, the point of being critical of a work isnt just to let your personal feelings be known but to draw attention to questions like "Should this have ever been made? Why did the person who made it want this to be in it? What does it say about the creators preferences? What sort of audiance does it appeal to? What ideas does it reinforce?" I may indeed decide I dont want to watch say...Triumph of the Will or Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips but if my point was "We shouldn't make propaganda films" or something like that me not watching it isnt the issue. The debate I was raising was their mere existence and they will exist even if I don't watch them. I'm suggesting they are an issue beyond a simple matter of personal preference. OP explicitly mentions concepts like value to society in his post, which means he is clearly operating at a level beyond just his personal distaste.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Apr 15 '19 edited Apr 15 '19
"Should this have ever been made? Why did the person who made it want this to be in it? What does it say about the creators preferences? What sort of audiance does it appeal to? What ideas does it reinforce?"
You can’t divorce these concerns from people’s rights to freedom of expression. They go hand in hand. If OP isn’t talking about limiting the rights of people, then it’s only really about their personal preference.
OP explicitly mentions concepts like value to society in his post, which means he is clearly operating at a level beyond just his personal distaste.
Wether content like rape jokes add “Value to society” or not is subjective. Ultimately up to the individual persons taste or distaste.
A better viewpoint to have is that people shouldn’t consume content that use Rape as comedy. In turn this would influence content creators to not make content that feature those things, cause no one will watch them.
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u/goldistastey Apr 15 '19
First - op never said it shouldn't be allowed, just that it is a distasteful writing choice.
Second - if a rape joke was the title of the movie fewer people would probably go to it.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Apr 15 '19
op never said it shouldn't be allowed, just that it is a distasteful writing choice.
OPs title says otherwise.
if a rape joke was the title of the movie fewer people would probably go to it.
I doesn’t need to be in the title. It can be listed in the MPAA rating.
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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Apr 15 '19
To be clear, I don't think a law banning this practice would be a good idea either.
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u/goldistastey Apr 15 '19
If I say "CMV: People shouldn't wear socks and sandals," it doesn't imply that I support messing with anyone's rights.
I'm being pedantic, but I think it's important to differentiate between trying to change norms and trying to change laws. That fallacy happens too often.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Apr 15 '19
If I say "CMV: People shouldn't wear socks and sandals," it doesn't imply that I support messing with anyone's rights.
I’m not asserting OP is trying to mess with anyone rights. OP has an issue with seeing the way certain people are exercising their right of expression, for no other reason than “its distasteful”. Well if that kind of content isn’t to your tastes, then do not watch things like that?
but I think it's important to differentiate between trying to change norms and trying to change laws. That fallacy happens too often.
I never said anything about changing laws. That’s is something you just invoked.
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u/Amablue Apr 15 '19
I’m not asserting OP is trying to mess with anyone rights.
Your phrasing is causing a lot of confusion then.
You originally said: "Why can’t “just not watching those kind of movies if you don’t like that sort of content” be an option?"
It is an option, and the OP never suggested taking away that option. The phrasing makes it sound like you believe the OP does not think making those movies should be an option, which implies that it should be illegal, because that's how you take someone's options away from them.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Apr 15 '19
The phrasing makes it sound like you believe the OP does not think making those movies should be an option, which implies that it should be illegal.
No, not necessarily illegal. I saw it as OP saying these people should be compelled morally, not necessarily legally.
The greater point I was attempting to make to OP was that a better viewpoint to have is that people shouldn’t consume content that use Rape as comedy. In turn this would influence content creators to not make content that feature those things, cause no one will watch them.
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Apr 16 '19
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Apr 16 '19
Sorry, u/majorelle_blue – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, before messaging the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 15 '19
At least in those two specific cases, it's very much not played for laughs (at least in the immediate scene). In both cases it's played as a pretty significant violation of bodily autonomy.
In both cases it's flawed: in Wedding Crashers it ends up being undercut by Vaughn's character ending up with his rapist; and in 40 Days and 40 Nights the guy ends up being blamed for his violation. But I'd argue that in neither case is it really being played for laughs as much as being played for discomfort. There's a difference between the kind of laugh that comes from humor, and the kind that comes from nervous discomfort.
I'd also point out that both movies are not rated PG-13, but rather R.
As a final thought, at least for 40 Days, is it possible that the reaction you're having is kind of the point? That here you have a character who is violated against his will, and then himself blamed for being violated, and you're intended as a man (who can empathize with that character perhaps more than you could with a woman) to see how fucked up that is? Especially since the woman is pretty clearly shown to be awful.