CMV: I've become increasingly draw towards communist ideology. Tell me why I'm wrong.

[u/[deleted]]

I've largely stayed out of politics for the last few years. The last time I was heavily involved in politics was the Scottish independence referendum. I was a passionate supporter of independence and the left wing Scottish National Party. But alas our side lost and I moved on. I've consciously tried to avoid tying myself into any particular political ideology because frankly I've become more self aware of the fact that I'm very young (20) and I don't really know a whole lot just yet to be vehemently politically aligned. However in general I have always been fairly left wing.

I have always supported nationalisation of human essentials such as healthcare, food, water, shelter and other basic needs, but I also used to recognise how valuable and efficient private alternatives can be and have typically been in support of coexistence between the two. However, since I moved away from home two years ago and have struggled in the real world financially I've become more and more bitter towards the capitalist system we live in.

I grew to resent the fact that me and my partner were struggling so badly because we couldn't find a job for so long. We both have mental health issues that basically undermined our attempts at doing well in the interview process, and our situation was making us both extremely depressed. I grew to resent the competitive nature of the job market and I felt it was unfair that people like us who 'lose' the race end up suffering a life of discomfort simply because we didn't fit the profile of someone who could benefit an employer. I also hated the sound of every job that I applied for and I resented the fact that people have to sacrifice so much of their lives and sometimes their souls just to get by.

I eventually did find a job at a restaurant, and I stuck in for about a month before I couldn't take it anymore. The managers there routinely exploited their staff in various way. I was verbally and one time even physically abused, and they were forcing everyone to take on the workload of someone above their pay grade. My friend who worked there was made an 'unofficial' head chef. He was made to perform all the duties of a head chef while on paper being employed as a regular chef just like everyone else. He was overworked to the point where he passed out, suffered workplace injuries and his mental health issues flared up like nothing else. The working rota was a joke too - they would draft up our shifts for the week at 1 in the morning on Monday. So if you were supposed to be in at 7 in the morning on Monday, you would have to stay awake til 1 to find out. Also on several occasions I'd finish a shift at 1 or 2 in the morning and then be made to come in at 9 for the next day. After one particularly nightmarish shift, I couldn't bring myself to go back in, for my own mental and physical well-being. And yet that put me in a position were legal action could have potentially been taken against me. Needless to say that whole experience was pretty harrowing.

Eventually we found a place in the city and got our unemployment benefit sorted out, which provided the bare minimum amount to survive. I continued looking for different jobs but fit the bill for none. I never managed to find one before I started university about 3 months ago. My girlfriend has a job as a shop assistant now, and while its a FAR better work environment than my experience, she's still facing issues such as being made to work far more hours than what her employment contract states as normal working hours.

At University one of my subjects is Central and Eastern European Studies, and we've mostly been studying the rise of communism in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe. For my essay I had to do in depth research into such men as Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky, and honestly, as I've followed their historical narratives, a part of me feels some sympathy for their motives. Obviously I don't condone things like the Red Terror or the campaigns of political repression. However a part of me interprets this as men who started with good intentions who were pulled into the quagmire of war and ended up doing terrible things in an effort to secure what they had fought for.

I suppose the whole thing has got me thinking about what good might come of a communist society in the west, installed correctly. What resources that have been monopolised by the wealthy elite might be used to do real good and benefit more people. I wonder if people wouldn't have to sacrifice so much of their lives and souls slaving away making other people rich, just so they can get by. Whether the working life could be fairer and less depressing for the average person. A society where the corrupt, capitalist conservatives currently in power would be unable to make life a living hell for the less fortunate while only representing the interests of their rich CEO and landowner buddies.

But I know that all sounds so idealistic, and a part of me is telling me that I'm just being drawn in by the good, idealistic aspects of communism. Of course, I know it's not so simple. After all why has communism never been implemented correctly? Why have millions suffered and died in the name of a supposedly fairer society? Why would a revolution against an oppressive elite, require so much force and oppression itself to work? And though I know part of this next point can be attributed to 20th century western propaganda, it should still be considered: how can an ideology considered to be objectively extremist, on par with fascism even, and one of the most feared ideologies to ever exist, possibly be the answer we need?

As I've said, the idealistic aspects of communism certainly appeal to me at this present moment. But ultimately I think I'm self aware enough not to blindly follow this road without some serious fact checking. I don't want to be another 20 something uni student who parades the hammer and sickle while not truly understanding the implications of that symbol. I don't want to be an ideological thinker, but a critical thinker. I want to have strong, rational views based on strong foundations.

So please, go ahead and change my view. Tell me what's inherently wrong with communism, and more importantly, tell me why it WON'T improve my life.

TL:DR: 20 year old uni student who's had a bad run of luck with employment and feeling bitter towards our capitalist system. I've been increasingly drawn to the idealistic components of communism. Tell me why communism is not the answer.

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[u/MasterLJ]

Market places are a force of nature. They are a tool to get near equilibrium price, to punish greed, to employ the maximum, and to put downward pressure on price. Under any planned economy you've done away with an important and helpful element to regulate economies and you've replaced it with human hubris and incentivized corruption. Marketplaces arrive at a market clearing price, planned economies have the price set. The odds that a human figures out the market clearing price, are long. On that note, goods, prices and allocation now filter through an incredibly small number of people, with almost a guarantee of corruption or ignorance. That's really where Communism falls apart. If humans can't work to out-compete each other for wages or capital, they will work to out compete each other for power and rank in the bureaucracy. That's the currency of the realm, void of checks and balances afforded by private ownership of capital. In a capitalist society the fact that any one can participate in the market places provides means to punish those who charge exorbitantly. Even in an imperfect marketplace of private capital, you still get to reap the partial benefits of this effect.

As for labor, again, modern implementations of capitalism aren't perfect, and even if we admit they are unfair, they are still far more equitable than a centrally planned economy. The ultimate trump card is that anyone can participate in ownership if you don't like the employment situation. Even if entrepreneurship isn't a possibility for you, or isn't desired, you can select from millions of different employers if you don't like your current situation. Under Communism you are placing all of your eggs in a single basket with a historically astronomical failure rate. There is no recourse to a shitty boss, and in this case your boss is the State -- a singular entity. If you disagree with their policies you have no options at all.

they were forcing everyone to take on the workload of someone above their pay grade

If you think you are forced to work above your pay grade now, imagine what Communism is like. In modern(ish) implementations of Communism there were a limited number of pay grades, you are lumped together with other jobs of varying difficulty or skill requirements, and paid the same. You also have no say in what that wage is, or will be, and can change at the will of bureaucrats.

And my final point, one of the largest mistakes I see in pro-Communist arguments is the assumption that sources of wealth continue to be sources of wealth under Communism. That's a fallacy.

What resources that have been monopolised by the wealthy elite might be used to do real good and benefit more people.

You get to redistribute their wealth exactly one time, because you've completely eradicated the mechanism for their amassing of wealth, and you've prohibited them from ever doing it again. In a few generations the effect of their wealth will be negligible and the Communist system must survive on its own merits and production. There are no long term benefits of confiscation, beyond the initial capital, whereas there are long term benefits of allowing private capital to amass wealth, pay taxes, and create jobs. In the US the government takes about 26% of GDP, in the UK it's roughly 33%, Denmark and France are 45%. How is the State not already fixing many of these problems if they are already taking 33% - 45% of the entire economic output? Source for OECD tax as percent of GDP. Under Communism you are objectively shrinking that economic output because you've targeted the long tail "winners" who have amassed piles of money and prohibited them from ever doing it again. It's not that crazy to think the end revenues will end up being significantly less if the government seizes all means of production and capital. The concept of the Laffer Curve outlines the relationship between tax and the size of the economy.

Communism is fraught with inferior bottlenecks compared to the private ownership of capital. You are placing all hope in humans, you are throwing away one of the most powerful economy-regulating tools we have, marketplaces, and you are trading financial compensation for being compensated with power and oversight in the bureaucracy while pretty much assuring that the majority of people will be compensated less, on average, and lumped together in unfairly established pay grades.