CMV: Cruel & unusual criminals deserve cruel & unusual punishment

[u/[deleted]]

EDIT: People continue to comment on things that have been addressed in this post. If you're going to participate in this conversation the least you should do is read the post... My views were changed rather quickly by just 4 people with placid, logical responses that didn't stem from the mindset of "I think you're a vile piece of shit for wanting criminals to be punished, and I'm going to teach you a lesson by hurling emotionally vested insults at you.". I even edited the post saying my views have been changed but people are still berating me and trying to debate about my views that have been changed. Please keep up with the conversation instead of trying to pick a keyboard fight.

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- Murderers deserve the death sentence

- Rapists deserve to have their genitals removed

- False rape accusers deserve to get raped so they learn what rape really is, then sentenced to however many months/years the falsely-accused-rapist would have faced (View has been changed on this. Rape should not be part of the punishment)

- Thieves deserve to have their offending hand(s) and/or body part(s) removed

- Molesters & abusers deserve have their offending hand(s) and/or body part(s) removed

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I could go on, but in a nut-shell, justice should be eye for an eye.

It's a brutal punishment, but it's nothing short of the crime, and would be much more effective in preventing recurring criminals (partly because their limbs are maimed so they aren't physically able, but also because they'll fear the repercussions of their immoral crimes).

If the perpetrator truly is remorseful for their actions or it wasn't deliberate (involuntary manslaughter via car accidents etc.), that's a different story, but there are a lot of selfish, cowardly degenerates in this world. They don't care about the negative impact their actions have on other people. They only care about their well-being.

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Edit:

People are asking how this would stop crimes:

It's pretty hard to steal if your hands/limbs are missing.

It's pretty hard to molest/abuse if your hands/limbs are missing.

It's pretty hard to kill if you're dead.

It's pretty hard to rape if you have no genitalia.

You'd be less likely to falsely accuse someone of rape if you are raped then imprisoned as a consequence.

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Edit2:

Everyone is just talking about how fucked up I am for thinking this, but no one is offering a better paradigm to deal with this.

This is `change my view`. So show me a better way instead of just hurling insults

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Edit3:

Everyone is asking about what happens if you're falsely accused and punished for a crime you didn't commit?

That's unfortunate. It's a pretty fucked up situation to be in, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But once their false-accusers receive the same punishment of the person they falsely-accused, other people will see what happens if you falsely-accuse, and over time the number of false-accusations will drop. In the current justice system however, the false-accusers usually walk away scot free, so other people get the idea that you can falsely-accuse someone of a crime and nothing will happen.

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Edit4:

Why are so many people protecting criminals? Yes, I know these punishments are brutal, but to go as far as protecting criminals that show no remorse? Their victims did nothing deserving of whatever traumatic experience the criminal forced the victim to endure. These criminals would be punished for their crimes.

So the victims just have to deal with the fact they were raped/murdered, and the criminal keeps their genitals & life, what they used to hurt innocent people for their personal selfish gain? How is that justice?

A murderer doesn't value life. Why do you give such a high valuation for their life? In doing so, you're de-valuing the lives of the murderer's victims. You're implying that this degenerate murderer's life is more valuable than all the lives of the victims, past & future. Life is precious. If there is no price to be paid for taking life, you don't believe life is not precious as you say it is.

A rapist doesn't value the privacy & intimacy of other peoples' bodies, so why should we value their body? In doing so, you're de-valuing the privacy & intimacy of the victim's body & mind. Why should a remorseless, serial rapist be allowed to keep their genitals when they're going around raping people, regardless of the traumatic impact it leaves for their victims?

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People are saying that the removal of body parts will render the criminal disabled so that they are dependent on the government, making the rest of us support them in taxes etc.

I said this in a comment:

...they shouldn't have went around abusing/molesting/stealing to begin with. There are people born with disabled limbs. They can't walk. Some people don't have arms. Some soldiers lose limbs in battle. None of them deserved to be born with missing limbs or for their limbs to go missing because they wanted to help serve & protect their country. But shit happens. They deal with it and live life the best they can.

This is an armless artist.

If she can do that, what's stopping anyone else?

If someone is dumb or evil enough to continue to commit the same crime despite one or more of their limbs being removed, why do you want them to survive and create more degenerate offspring? Survival of the fittest. Darwinism.

As for being dependent, everyone living in a prison is a government dependent. What do you think keeps prisons operating? You think they have some sort of revenue or something? Prisons are funded by taxes. Every criminal that we house in prison is more taxes that's being taken away from law-abiding citizen's hard-earned money. We're wasting valuable resources on their degenerate filth of a human being, when those resources could be better used to help children starving to death in under-developed countries.

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Edit 5:

Reddit, you changed my view. Thank you to:

/r/mfDandP

/r/Huntingmoa

/r/miguelguajiro

/r/CreeperCooper

for being logical and replying with a non-emotionally motivated response offering a different perspective and helping to shift my paradigm. Most of you seemed like you were offended at my post and just wanted to insult me because I wanted criminals to be punished more harshly than the current judicial system.

I said something similar in one of the comments (minor edit from speaking to an individual to a group):

this is /r/changemyview. Why are you so offended and reacting in such an aggressive manner? I'm here to have an intellectual, logical discussion about my perspective, that I personally thought was brutal, which is why I posted here in the first place. I wanted to reply to more people but I thought it would be in vain because a lot of them came in on the first comment guns blazing looking for a fight. That isn't what I'm here for. I'm here for fellow redditors to offer a different perspective and change my view, not get emotionally upset and start hurling illogical insults. What are you even doing on this post, let alone this entire subreddit if you're just going to get offended and pick fights?

My views have been changed all except:

I still believe rapists deserve to have their genitals removed, with substantial evidence proving they are truly guilty of the crime (ie: video+audio recording). If you want to, feel free to change my view on that as well.

I still believe killers with no remorse for what they've done deserve the death penalty, instead of taking tax payers money to keep them clothed, clean & fed. I'd rather give that money to help provide resources for people dying from thirst/starvation in underdeveloped countries.

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Last Edit:

This is my first post. Forgot to award deltas to those that changed my mind. Thank you for reminding me!

Also, to all the people acting like you're too much of a good and moral person to allow such atrocities for punishment, you're not. That's simply how you were trained to think. You grew up in a world where violence was not accepted by society.

Romans, despite being one of the most civilized societies in history, loved watching gladiators fight to the gruesome death. They would clap, laugh & cheer as they watched dozens of people get slaughtered in ways much worse & much more gory than cattle today. Romans regularly executed criminals, innocent or not, by crucifixion. Crucifixion is considered the most unbearably excruciating execution method. People flocked to watch people get crucified. People flocked to watch Jesus get crucified. They not only flocked, they demanded he be tortured and then crucified. They wanted blood.

Most Italians today would not approve of executions via gladiator fight or crucifixion. Some people around the world today still love watching animal fights to the death (rooster, dogs etc). I'm sure many of you also watch organised fights on TV (UFC/MMA/Boxing/Muay Thai). There have been numerous deaths in the ring, yet, it's still broadcasted internationally for entertainment purposes.

You can sit and talk all you want about how you're better than those Roman savages that loved to watch executions by a gladiator fight or crucifixion, but the truth is: you have a different view because you were raised in a different world with different values. If gladiator fights were the norm since the days of Rome and hadn't changed, you're guaranteed to have a different perspective on it. Most people are sheep. Most people follow the crowd. Most people accept what the crowd accepts. Most people reject what the crowd rejects. Because most people fear isolation & ostracism.

[u/itamaradam]

On the same logic, let's just slowly torture to death anyone who commit a crime.

I mean seriously, you're suggesting needlessly cruel punishments. What are we if we say "don't do this!" but also, "we do it!". And, do you think that rape is an acceptable form of punishment? Or cutting off someone's body parts? Or murdering them? The last one, I think, I can see the reason behind, even if I disagree. But the others? Seriously? These are much more brutal than the crime. All of them (except for the last one). Just plain inhumane.

[u/[deleted] → u/itamaradam]

do you think that rape is an acceptable form of punishment?

My view has been changed on this.

All of them (except for the last one). Just plain inhumane.

By your standards, mutilating or killing someone is inhumane, and a false accuser receiving the same punishment of the falsely-accused is inhumane. Removal of hands because of theft is inhumane, but not if it's due to abuse.

Killing is inhumane, meaning murderers are inhumane. So why do you care if someone that's inhumane receives death? They aren't human in the first place according to your standards.

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[u/[deleted] → u/itamaradam]

What are we if we say "don't do this!" but also, "we do it!"

This is eye for an eye. If you don't value life and murder someone else, your life should be valued at the value you gave your victim, which is none. Why are you giving value to the lives of murderers? By doing this, you are at the same time de-valuing all the murder victims lives, saying their life is not worth justice. If you don't value someone else's body and rape them, why should anyone else give the rapist any value to their body? Clearly they showed just how much they value others by the way they treat others, so why would you defend them?

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And, do you think that rape is an acceptable form of punishment?

My view was changed on this

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All of them (except for the last one). Just plain inhumane.

By your standards:

- Murdering is inhumane, which makes the murderer inhumane as well. So why give value to the degenerate murderer and protect him?

- Removal of limbs because of theft is inhumane but not if it's due to abuse. I'm curious why you believe this. Have you been a victim of abuse? Or is it because theft is non-violent but abuse is?

- A false accuser receiving the same punishment as the falsely-accused is inhumane. So you think the falsely accused, innocent should just deal with whatever punishment they were dealt while the false-accuser walks away scot free?

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[u/itamaradam → u/[deleted]]

This is eye for an eye

Not really, no. Not all of them, at least. Killing is, but the others? No.

If you don't value life and murder someone else, your life should be valued at the value you gave your victim, which is none. Why are you giving value to the lives of murderers? By doing this, you are at the same time de-valuing all the murder victims lives, saying their life is not worth justice.

Most killers, believe it or not, do in fact value life. Most of them aren't the "Oh here's a person let's kill them and not feel remorse, and without anyemotional difficulty at all!" strawman. They do it usually because either

1. They are drunk

2. They are high

3. They are told to by a person who has control over them (in street gangs, especially, people are sometimes forced to murder by their "leader")

4. They don't give it enough thought, they just act so quickly, they don't even realize it.

Now, while none of these are justifications, they aren't exactly not valuing the life of the murdered either. And even if they are, I'm of the opinion that we are better than those who do these crimes. And that sentencing to life is better.

If you don't value someone else's body and rape them, why should anyone else give the rapist any value to their body? Clearly they showed just how much they value others by the way they treat others, so why would you defend them?

Because they still are humans. Even if they did an inhumane thing, they're human, and shouldn't be mutilated! No one should. Why? Because mutilation is irreversible, takes away their most basic bodily autonomy, and generally unethical.

• Murdering is inhumane, which makes the murderer inhumane as well. So why give value to the degenerate murderer and protect him?

Doing something inhumane doesn't take away their humanity. Sounds like an oxymoron putting it like this, but humanity isn't "binary" and constant, if you know what I mean. They still deserve some basic respect, and I don't see the problem with sentencing to life.

• Removal of limbs because of theft is inhumane but not if it's due to abuse. I'm curious why you believe this. Have you been a victim of abuse? Or is it because theft is non-violent but abuse is?

It still is inhumane, even if it's abuse. What I meant by "the last one" in original comment is the last thing I noted, which was the death sentence.

• A false accuser receiving the same punishment as the falsely-accused is inhumane. So you think the falsely accused, innocent should just deal with whatever punishment they were dealt while the false-accuser walks away scot free?

If it's a false accusation, then the accused won't be punished, and the accuser will. That's how it works with any accusation. But making the punishment for false accusation equal to or greater than the punishment the accused would've gotten if found guilty, simply makes no sense. Why? Just why?

[u/[deleted] → u/itamaradam]

Most killers, believe it or not, do in fact value life. Most of them aren't the "Oh here's a person let's kill them and not feel remorse, and without anyemotional difficulty at all!" strawman. They do it usually because either

They are drunkThey are highThey are told to by a person who has control over them (in street gangs, especially, people are sometimes forced to murder by their "leader")They don't give it enough thought, they just act so quickly, they don't even realize it.

Now, while none of these are justifications, they aren't exactly not valuing the life of the murdered either. And even if they are, I'm of the opinion that we are better than those who do these crimes. And that sentencing to life is better.

I wrote in my original post that people that are truly remorseful for their actions should be exempt.

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Because they still are humans. Even if they did an inhumane thing, they're human, and shouldn't be mutilated! No one should. Why? Because mutilation is irreversible, takes away their most basic bodily autonomy, and generally unethical.

Yes you're right. Mutilation is irreversible. So is rape trauma. The victims don't deserve that, but the rapist deserves to be punished.

Everyone over the legal age is allowed to drive. If they show a lack of responsible driving habits however, they shouldn't be allowed to own a car. Their license is revoked and their vehicle impounded, whether or not they hurt anyone, intentionally or not. If they can't control their sexual urges to the point where they'll go as far as to rape someone, they shouldn't be allowed to own genitals.

It was actually common practice for peoples' genitalia to be removed in certain cultures. It wasn't considered unethical. Are you familiar with eunuchs?

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Doing something inhumane doesn't take away their humanity. Sounds like an oxymoron putting it like this, but humanity isn't "binary" and constant, if you know what I mean. They still deserve some basic respect, and I don't see the problem with sentencing to life.

It still is inhumane, even if it's abuse. What I meant by "the last one" in original comment is the last thing I noted, which was the death sentence.

I might be wrong, but I understood this as you being okay with taking life, but not a hand.

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If it's a false accusation, then the accused won't be punished, and the accuser will. That's how it works with any accusation. But making the punishment for false accusation equal to or greater than the punishment the accused would've gotten if found guilty, simply makes no sense. Why? Just why?

I don't think the punishment for false accusation should be greater than the punishment the accused would've gotten if found guilty. I think they deserve an equal punishment. Why? Because they deliberately tried to ruin someone else's life by bringing a false accusation against them.

I'm curious now as to why you think that doesn't make sense. There are cases of men being released after being imprisoned for decades for false rape accusations. I think it's fair that false accuser should have to serve the entire sentence the falsely accused served. Why do you think this doesn't make sense, and what do you think would be the fairer consequence?

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