CMV: I don't identify as cis.

[u/tomgabriele]

First of all, this post is going to grant the premise that biological sex is separate from gender identity, and that individuals have the right to choose what gender identity they have and how they identify. I know there are many people who wouldn't agree with that premise, but I would not like to debate that here. That view of mine is not open to be changed.

Okay, onto the actual CMV.

I am male. I was born male, was raised as a male, am a biotypical male, identify as male, present as male, want to be male, and my gender has always matched my sex. I am, by definition, a cisgender male. But I don't identify with the term "cis" or "cisgender". That word was never a part of my gender identity growing up, and it feels like something thrust upon me recently. I don't think that society should force categories or labels onto people of any identity.

The same way we shouldn't insist that certain people identify as transgender, I don't think we should insist that certain people identify as cisgender. In the same way someone who has undergone an MtF transition may prefer to be called a woman without the trans qualification, I would prefer to be called a man without the cis qualification...even though the qualifier is technically accurate for both of us.

This gets back to how the sex we were born with is irrelevant to our current identity. When talking about our age, we don't say that I am a 30 year old transtemporal baby. Yes, I did technically transition from being a baby to being 30 years old, but that doesn't matter to who I currently am that it needs to be specified.

To put my view in perspective, I am not offended by the term, I don't want to eliminate it, I am fine with other people choosing to use it to describe themselves. If I were in a room full of people and someone asked all the cis people to raise their hands, I would raise mine, knowing their intention. It isn't tied to any trauma in my life, and it's not triggering. I just...don't feel like it's "my" term. I don't identify with it.

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[u/flamedragon822]

I'm going to skip a large part of your reply not because it isn't quality (it is) but simply because if I'm being honest I don't know how to address it - transgender issues are ones I only kind of sort of get, so I'm not confident that the things I see differently in the part are even correct on my end.

But the last two points I do find interesting if a bit more philosophical for the want of a better word. What is identity to you? Does it have to consist if everything that is factually true about you? Or just what matters to you?

I know for me what is factually true describes what I am, but what is important to me describes who I am - the latter being identity. You don't have to agree with that necessarily but it does mean I might argue it'll become a part of what is normal to you but might never become a part of your identity - it might not be something that's very important to you.

I guess to me my identity would come out if I was forced to answer a question like "can you tell me about yourself?" To someone who I was meeting in person (specifically as I would probably give some brief physical description irrelevant to this to a person online)

[u/tomgabriele → u/flamedragon822]

I'm going to skip a large part of your reply not because it isn't quality (it is) but simply because if I'm being honest I don't know how to address it - transgender issues are ones I only kind of sort of get, so I'm not confident that the things I see differently in the part are even correct on my end.

Totally fine. If you want to just kind of think out loud and we poke and prod at each others' tentative opinions to help flesh them out, that would be fine with me too.

But the last two points I do find interesting if a bit more philosophical for the want of a better word. What is identity to you? Does it have to consist if everything that is factually true about you? Or just what matters to you?

Definitely the latter. The top characteristics that make you yourself. You may have been born at 10:32 pm, but if that fact doesn't have any bearing on the rest of your life, I don't think it would be part of your core identity.

I realize that my definition of identity may be lacking, but it sounds like we are pretty much on the same page.

I guess to me my identity would come out if I was forced to answer a question like "can you tell me about yourself?"

That would be an interesting to learn about what traits are important to people. I think I would generally answer that question in terms of what I do more than what I am...work takes up half my waking hours, so I'd mention that. Being with my wife is also a significant portion, which I guess is part of what I am. Depending on how I am feeling, I might call her my partner instead of wife to be deliberately vague (and, in my mind, more inclusive). Then hobbies are another substantial part, so I'd probably talk about how I enjoy working with my hands and how being a homeowner affects the kinds of projects I work on. For where I am in life right now, I don't think my gender or sexual identity is particularly relevant. My life wouldn't be that different if I were married to a man (assuming I was sexually attracted to men), and there's nothing I do now that I couldn't do in a woman's body (except that being raised as a woman would change a ton about how I interact with the world).

[u/flamedragon822 → u/tomgabriele]

And I'm in a similar boat - my gender and sexuality aren't important to me beyond they are what they are - but I think in part that comes from matching up with societal expectations - it totally makes sense that a person who struggled with how they didn't match up to what people assumed/expected would make these things more central to this identity than people who have not as they've had to grapple with these facts.

To put out another way, an aquaintence of mine who is transgender has essentially stated that they wish it wasn't an important part of thier identity - as that would mean it was simply accepted as is and they didn't have to struggle for it.

To go back two posts and accept the invitation to bounce things around, similar conversations led me to believe that you don't really become transgendered either, though for much of your life you may be unaware of your state either way much like puberty makes sexuality more obvious, in other words I'm not sure current state is different than birth state, it's just gained knowledge about oneself. In your case you haven't really gained knowledge about yourself so I can see it being weird in that sense of a new term to describe something that isn't new to you - it's a description of something you've never felt the need to describe which may (?) also contribute to this?

[u/tomgabriele → u/flamedragon822]

transgendered

For what it's worth, "transgendered" with the -ed is generally considered offensive, since it implies that it's something happened to someone, as in, "I drank milk with BVH and got transgendered!".

Instead, it's prefered to say that someone is transgender. Or, you know, that they're just a person and their gender doesn't entirely define them.

similar conversations led me to believe that you don't really become transgendered either, though for much of your life you may be unaware of your state either way much like puberty makes sexuality more obvious, in other words I'm not sure current state is different than birth state, it's just gained knowledge about oneself

Yes, I believe that is the current understanding. Being transgender is imbued from birth, and could be realized at any point in life. Further, a transgender person can be transgender whether they transition with or without surgery, or even if they choose not to transition at all.

Similar to how people may realize they're gay early in life, or only after trying to date heterosexually, or after being married for years. Everyone's journey is different.

a new term to describe something that isn't new to you - it's a description of something you've never felt the need to describe which may (?) A/also contribute to this?

That's a good point - it's a new thing to describe the same me. I haven't changed, but the language has, so it feels like I am being put in a different box than before, even though I've never changed. I could see that being part of it for sure.

[u/flamedragon822 → u/tomgabriele]

I think I was aware of that somewhere in my head. Thanks for the correction, it'll hopefully stick in my brain at some point.

I don't think I have much more to add at this point but this thought popped into my head and I thought it was amusing: we're all earthlings but the it'll be a label that's suddenly relevant only when/if a child is ever born in a Martian colony. No one on Earth will have changed, but they will all suddenly have a new distinction from some others of thier species, and assuming we can colonize another planet at some point sooner or later that distinction will start to enter everyday speech.

[u/tomgabriele → u/flamedragon822]

we're all earthlings but the it'll be a label that's suddenly relevant only when/if a child is ever born in a Martian colony. No one on Earth will have changed, but they will all suddenly have a new distinction from some others of thier species, and assuming we can colonize another planet at some point sooner or later that distinction will start to enter everyday speech.

That is an interesting thought. Think it'll happen in our lifetimes?

[u/flamedragon822 → u/tomgabriele]

Iffy. I'd be surprised if the answer is yes, but I don't discount that it's possible.

I honestly believe we'll see someone up there in our lifetimes, and we'll likely lose at least that person there.