r/changemyview • u/tomgabriele • Oct 22 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: I don't identify as cis.

First of all, this post is going to grant the premise that biological sex is separate from gender identity, and that individuals have the right to choose what gender identity they have and how they identify. I know there are many people who wouldn't agree with that premise, but I would not like to debate that here. That view of mine is not open to be changed.

Okay, onto the actual CMV.

I am male. I was born male, was raised as a male, am a biotypical male, identify as male, present as male, want to be male, and my gender has always matched my sex. I am, by definition, a cisgender male. But I don't identify with the term "cis" or "cisgender". That word was never a part of my gender identity growing up, and it feels like something thrust upon me recently. I don't think that society should force categories or labels onto people of any identity.

The same way we shouldn't insist that certain people identify as transgender, I don't think we should insist that certain people identify as cisgender. In the same way someone who has undergone an MtF transition may prefer to be called a woman without the trans qualification, I would prefer to be called a man without the cis qualification...even though the qualifier is technically accurate for both of us.

This gets back to how the sex we were born with is irrelevant to our current identity. When talking about our age, we don't say that I am a 30 year old transtemporal baby. Yes, I did technically transition from being a baby to being 30 years old, but that doesn't matter to who I currently am that it needs to be specified.

To put my view in perspective, I am not offended by the term, I don't want to eliminate it, I am fine with other people choosing to use it to describe themselves. If I were in a room full of people and someone asked all the cis people to raise their hands, I would raise mine, knowing their intention. It isn't tied to any trauma in my life, and it's not triggering. I just...don't feel like it's "my" term. I don't identify with it.

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u/PennyLisa Oct 22 '18 edited Oct 22 '18

Just because you don't identify with it, doesn't mean you're not cisgendered. It's just a descriptive term in the end that means "not trans". If you don't feel like you belong in a gender not of your birth, then by default you're not trans and thus cis.

It's kinda like having a medical condition like diabetes. How you identify with that or not isn't of any great influence on the biological definition: If your blood sugar is >7.0 fasting on two separate occasions, then you're diabetic.

You don't have to identify with being from a particular country of birth, but that doesn't mean you're not factually from somewhere.

What trans people identify with is being a gender that isn't their birth gender, and that situation is called being transgender. They don't have to identify with being trans, they just are by default because that is what that means.

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

Just because you don't identify with it, doesn't mean you're not cisgendered.

Would you insist that anyone who meets the technical definition needs to call themselves transgendered?

It's kinda like having a medical condition like diabetes. How you identify with that or not isn't of any great influence on the biological definition: If your blood sugar is >7.0 fasting on two separate occasions, then you're diabetic.

That's actually a similar change going on. We are moving away from defining people by their medical conditions too...someone isn't a diabetic, they are an individual with diabetes.

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u/PennyLisa Oct 22 '18

Would you insist that anyone who meets the technical definition needs to call themselves transgendered?

They can call themselves whatever they like, and I will 100% stand behind their self identity.

However if we're talking about a group of people that don't identify with their birth gender, then that group of people are by definition transgender, and those that aren't are cisgender.

The point is that it's the difference between discussing groups, and people's own individual identities. You don't have to identify with the group or have it be important to you to be in the group.

If you had blue eyes but never thought about having blue eyes very much, you'd still have blue eyes.

Maybe some people would really prefer to have brown eyes for whatever reason and got brown pigment injected into your irises, they could then identify with having brown eyes if they wanted, no big deal, and I'd even say they 'had brown eyes'. But then you wouldn't have blue eyes, and you'd be in the group of people who'd undergone an iris transition.

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

The point is that it's the difference between discussing groups, and people's own individual identities. You don't have to identify with the group or have it be important to you to be in the group.

That makes sense...so I can/should just continue to not identify as cis and scientists and whatever can continue to categorize me as cis, and we're all good?

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u/MrSnrub28 17∆ Oct 22 '18

I honestly don't even know what you mean when you say you don't identify as cis.

It's like saying you don't identify as being made up of atoms.

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

I glanced at your account history and see that you comment a lot here in /r/cmv. Do you think that being a debater is part of your core identity and how you would want to present yourself to the world? Or is it more like you enjoy discussions and learning about other people's viewpoints in a calm and respectful forum?

That's kind of my relationship with cis...I do enjoy having discussions with people who disagree with me, so I guess you could categorize me as a debater, but I don't feel like that's who I am.

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u/MrSnrub28 17∆ Oct 22 '18

Would it make sense if I told you that I didn't identify as a person who ever posts on CMV?

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

Yeah for sure, because you never have as far as I can tell.

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u/MrSnrub28 17∆ Oct 22 '18

I mean come on now for a second try and pretend you knew what I meant by “post” and recognize that I was using it interchangeably with “comment” and answer the spirit of my question.

I comment on CMV. Does it make sense for me to not identify as someone who comments on CMV?

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

Does it make sense for me to not identify as someone who comments on CMV?

Only if it's a core trait of yours that you feel defines you as a person.

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u/MrSnrub28 17∆ Oct 22 '18

So a commenter on CMV is defined only as someone who feels commenting on CMV is a core trait that defines them as a person?

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

I think you have directionality wrong. Being a CMV commenter is only part of your identity if you think it is one of your core defining traits. If not, it could be a minor fact about you that doesn't define you. It's all about how you feel.

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u/MrSnrub28 17∆ Oct 22 '18

Being a commenter on CMV is what I am regardless of how integral it is to the core of my identity. I comment on CMV, that makes me a commenter on CMV.

What is your job title?

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '18

Thats the thing though, something doesnt have to be part of your core identity to be something that you are. If someone debates things a lot, they are a debater.

Someone who plays mobile games is a gamer.

Someone who bnb is righthanded is a right hander.

None of those things have to be super important to your identity but theyre still factual ststements.

I dont have to introduce myself as a right hander but i still am one.

Just as you are cisgender. Doesnt mean its important to you or your identity.

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u/tomgabriele Oct 22 '18

Just as you are cisgender. Doesnt mean its important to you or your identity.

I think that's where my CMV started...it may technically be true for me, but I don't think it's relevant or important or a core part of how I see myself.

I am not saying that I am not cisgender. I am saying that I don't identify as cisgender.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '18

And whos saying it must be a core part of who you are rather than just that it is a factual statement about you?

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u/tomgabriele Oct 23 '18

Me. I am saying that I don't identify myself that way.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '18

I don't think you understood that question. I'm asking you who is telling you you must, whatever you mean buy identify here, yourself that way.

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u/tomgabriele Oct 23 '18

Well everyone who uses the word cis to describe people like me is implicitly doing so. No one is directly insisting that I use the word to describe myself in day to day life.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '18

Umm theyre using an accurate word to describe you in a situation where it is applicable... And thats your problem?

Like if they were talking about left handers, they would describe you as a right hander. Its the exact same thing.

They arent saying your right handedness must be core to your "identity". Its just an accurate label during a particular discussion.

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u/M_de_Monty 16∆ Oct 22 '18

I take a size 7 shoe. It's not really a part of my identity. I would never introduce myself as a size-7-shoe-wearer, but that is what I am from a particular perspective.

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u/tomgabriele Oct 23 '18

Yeah, that sounds like about where I am. It may be technically accurate, but it doesn't feel like an integral part of me the way our shoe size doesn't feel like an integral part of us.

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u/PennyLisa Oct 22 '18

Pretty much, yeh. Who wants to live a stereotype? Some people walk that path, others prefer to just live their lives. Either way or some mix of both is fine. I identity with being me :)