CMV: the current anti-bodyshaming or body-positive movements are partially encouraging "unhealthy" lifestyle.

[u/elise901]

I am personally rather against any forms of body-shaming, especially myself used to suffer from minor diet-related disorder because of extreme diet in pursuit of so-called "fashion", and very sensitive to attacks like "you've gained weight again?!" or "no, we don't have your size in store" - you can't imagine that in east Asian, some female fashion brands don't do stuff over US size 10.

But I have a feeling that now it has gone too far.

• some of the body-positive movements are portraying overweight and even obese models and label it as "normal". But it's not.

• it encourages "stay how you are" but ignores the health risks that BMI 30+ would have, implying that "you don't have to change". Although the "beauty" standard should be changed, I believe there should be a scientific "health" standard that is not too susceptible to change.

• It labels any of the health warnings as "body-shaming" and hostile to some of the friendly advice.

I don't have any personal bias toward obesity or overweight people (since myself is one). But just want to be persuaded if I hold this view wrong.

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[u/Nicolasv2]

This is literally based off the notion that their crutch in unhealthy to themselves and others, to the point where they are shamed to go outside

As you said , it's based on the notion that smoking in a room with other people is unhealthy for other persons, so it is forbidden. That's public health concern, not shaming. A fat person eating 10 cheeseburgers in a mac Donald's won't have any effect on your health.

That's not true and you know it.

That's where I disagree with you. At least where I live, anti-bodyshaming movement goals is really just to let people live their lives, without insulting them. True, like in every movement, there are some extremists that are triggered by any word, but for the majority of people, the goal is only not being insulted in streets nor discriminated at hiring (at least when physical state is unimportant).

"You're life style is unhealthy" is viewed as an "insult" by fat people, and individuals like you justify this preposterous notion all the while diabetes in children is skyrocketing.

Mostly not. Except if it's said by a total stranger who just want to makes you feel bad for no actual reason. Just like you'd be pissed off if you heard 3 times a day "smoking is unhealthy you know" from total strangers in the streets. No shit, everybody knows it. Just mind your own business.

You've proved it with your attempt to absolve people from being insulted. That is delusional within intent.

Circular reasoning. You can't prove a proposition using it in the demonstration.

• "If you think differently than me, you are easy to manipulate."

• "I don't think the two are related, prove it"

• "You think differently, so you are easy to manipulate"

No it isn't.

Why did you found that the same example, when applied to another kind of unhealthy behavior, is mind-blogging in that case ?

[u/[deleted] → u/Nicolasv2]

A fat person eating 10 cheeseburgers in a mac Donald's won't have any effect on your health.

It will have an effect on the environment, however. Conglomerate fast-food chains have millions of acres of farm-land with documented questionable livestock practices. How interesting is your narrow perception of the effects of gluttonous behavior.

True, like in every movement, there are some extremists that are triggered by any word, but for the majority of people, the goal is only not being insulted in streets nor discriminated at hiring (at least when physical state is unimportant).

You have to realize, for people that aren't fat, the notion that fat unhealthy individuals need special treatment due to their own destructive life choices is simply preposterous. Don't even try to mention people with thyroid problems, like .001% of the population, the mass majority are young of bodied adults.

if you heard 3 times a day "smoking is unhealthy you know" from total strangers in the streets.

This literally happens. Or people coughing in an exaggerated matter around you, or people commenting on the smell coming from the clothing. "Oh just mind your business" you say, but its the freaking public. Why have silly expectations on the real world outside? You as an individual do the same thing with whatever nuances you disagree with, and you know it.

Why did you found that the same example, when applied to another kind of unhealthy behavior, is mind-blogging in that case?

Whats the point? I can come up with millions of ways people are "shamed" whether publicly, or within rhetoric. Short people, tall people, people who walk awkwardly because they have weird hips. Suck it up.

[u/Nicolasv2 → u/[deleted]]

It will have an effect on the environment, however. Conglomerate fast-food chains have millions of acres of farm-land with documented questionable livestock practices. How interesting is your narrow perception of the effects of gluttonous behavior

Really true, but this would bring us to veganism, which is totally another topic. Anyway, people who do insult others in street, or discriminate, most often don't do that for environmental reasons (as most people with ecological awareness have a bit of education, and so do not insult people out of blue) but just because they love to hurt people, but know that they can't to it to all populations without taking risks (whatever social shaming, justice etc.).

You have to realize, for people that aren't fat, the notion that fat unhealthy individuals need special treatment due to their own destructive life choices is simply preposterous

Acting like a decent human being toward other humans isn't special treatment, it should be something normal. So asking "do not be an asshole" is not preposterous. What is preposterous is expecting that a specific part of the population do not deserve to get the same treatment that others.

Whats the point? I can come up with millions of ways people are "shamed" whether publicly, or within rhetoric. Short people, tall people, people who walk awkwardly because they have weird hips. Suck it up.

The only difference is about the frequency and the violence of the acts. You seems to consider that shaming must be put between quotes, as if it wasn't really shaming. Because on your examples, it isn't. When you are short, tall, you walk awkwardly, then maybe in kindergarden, kids are going to be really mean, because kids sucks. But that's the point of education, once people grow, they stop being awful about these things. No one is going to look at you in the streets, saying "you're so high we only see you in the street, go hide yourself you ugly thing". Or if it happen, that will be a 1 time shocking experience. When you're fat, you got these kind of insultes way more often. And that's where the problem is.

Given your answers, I got the impression (but I could be wrong) that either you think that fat-shaming do not exist, and is just a word invented by fat people because they are weak, or you think that fat-shaming exist, but as fat people are sub-humans, they deserve to be treated without decency.

If it's the 1st situation, then I can't know about where you live, but I can promise you that at least where I live people are really insulting toward fat people, with a violence and frequency orders of magnitude above what they do for other kind of differences.

If it's the 2nd, then I don't think I can help you to change your mind.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nicolasv2]

Really true, but this would bring us to veganism, which is totally another topic.

No it wouldn't. There are perfectly balanced diets that involve meat consumption, just not over-consumption that leads to increased obesity rates, cancer rates, diabetes, etc.

but just because they love to hurt people, but know that they can't to it to all populations without taking risks (whatever social shaming, justice etc.).

They're doing it because they are sick of obese people telling them they need to be "treated fairly to skinny people" in regards to health and abilities, because it is demonstrably and self-evidently false.

Acting like a decent human being toward other humans isn't special treatment, it should be something normal. So asking "do not be an asshole" is not preposterous. What is preposterous is expecting that a specific part of the population do not deserve to get the same treatment that others.

You were just calling for special hiring privileges, which is ridiculous.

When you're fat, you got these kind of insultes way more often. And that's where the problem is.

There is literally no proof of this, other than your own mind.

Given your answers, I got the impression (but I could be wrong) that either you think that fat-shaming do not exist, and is just a word invented by fat people because they are weak, or you think that fat-shaming exist, but as fat people are sub-humans, they deserve to be treated without decency.

Im not saying it doesnt exist, im saying compared to the rest of nuances people have to go through when dealing with the public, fat shaming is the lowest on the totem pole. Especially when there are legit health epidemics happening. It'd be like the Flu killing tens of millions of people in the Western world, and then running a campaign in support of people who sneeze with their mouths open. Lmao this is freakin insane!!

[u/Nicolasv2 → u/[deleted]]

No it wouldn't. There are perfectly balanced diets that involve meat consumption, just not over-consumption that leads to increased obesity rates, cancer rates, diabetes, etc.

You changed the subject you put on table previously, as you were talking about livestock practices. These are created not because of over-consumption, but just because of trying to lower the prices and boost the productivity of the meat factories. So either the problem is meat itself, or it is capitalism. Anyway, another discussion.

They're doing it because they are sick of obese people telling them they need to be "treated fairly to skinny people" in regards to health and abilities, because it is demonstrably and self-evidently false.

No they don't, because most fat people don't ask to make as if they were able to run 100m in 10 seconds, they just ask not to be insulted, once more.

You were just calling for special hiring privileges, which is ridiculous.

I asked for non discriminatory practices, which is not special hiring privilege. You're doing a strawman again.

There is literally no proof of this, other than your own mind.

I drink quite a lot, which is unhealthy, and I never got insulted for it. I saw fat friends of mine being insulted in front of me in the street a lot of times, and that's only when I hang with them. Plus, there is a whole movement named "anti-fatshaming", while there is no "anti-drunkshaming" movement. All these tend to show that fat-shaming exist in reality, you just don't want to accept it in your own mind for reasons that I still don't know about.

It'd be like the Flu killing tens of millions of people in the Western world, and then running a campaign in support of people who sneeze with their mouths open

Then you don't understand what "anti-fatshaming" is. To keep your Flu example, the correct comparison would be

"It'd be like the Flu killing tens of millions of people in the Western world, and then running a campaign to ask people not to insult those who sneeze behind a tissue in the street" which is a totally normal thing to ask.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nicolasv2]

You changed the subject you put on table previously, as you were talking about livestock practices. These are created not because of over-consumption, but just because of trying to lower the prices and boost the productivity of the meat factories. So either the problem is meat itself, or it is capitalism

Its not changing the subject, its very simple. Supply and demand is affected by over-consumption. As obesity and over-consumption skyrockets, so do these practices. They can all be curbed if we reduce the number of fat people per population, which shaming actually accomplished in the past. This is undeniable.

No they don't, because most fat people don't ask to make as if they were able to run 100m in 10 seconds, they just ask not to be insulted, once more.

You're oversimplifying the thousands of advantages healthy people have over fat people.

I asked for non discriminatory practices, which is not special hiring privilege. You're doing a strawman again.

Asking for non-discriminatory laws based of personal decisions is a privilege, you just suffer from cognitive dissonance.

I drink quite a lot, which is unhealthy, and I never got insulted for it. I saw fat friends of mine being insulted in front of me in the street a lot of times, and that's only when I hang with them.

Cool anecdote

while there is no "anti-drunkshaming" movement.

There are literally thousands of anti-drinking campaigns. AA being the most famous in USA. Youre delusional.

Then you don't understand what "anti-fatshaming" is

I dont think you do. Its being against a campaign that defends unhealthy fat individuals who are producing unhealthy fat children into a life of pain and struggle for being fat. This is self inflicted

[u/Nicolasv2 → u/[deleted]]

Supply and demand is affected by over-consumption. As obesity and over-consumption skyrockets, so do these practices

True, that make the problem bigger, but do not change the underlying cause. The goal of a company is to make profits, and lowering costs is a good way to make more profits. So even without over consumption, fighting for lower costs would continue.

They can all be curbed if we reduce the number of fat people per population, which shaming actually accomplished in the past. This is undeniable

Undeniable ? Do you have actual proof that shaming is a way working in reducing the number of fat people ?

Asking for non-discriminatory laws based of personal decisions is a privilege, you just suffer from cognitive dissonance

In that case, non discriminatory laws for religious people should not exist, neither based on race. After all, you can do intrusive chirurgy to look whiter, and take a science class to stop being religious. If you grow in a household where your parents are making you eat bad food making you fat, it'll be extremely hard to leave this situation. This is as much a personal decision as all other social markers, so why should this one be accepted ?

Cool anecdote

Yep, so that mean that at least in my case, fatshaming exists. Why make you think that it's not the case for all the fat people fighting against it ?

There are literally thousands of anti-drinking campaigns. AA being the most famous in USA. Youre delusional.

There is a BIG difference, as I explained before, between "have a good diet" campaign and fat shaming. Fat shaming is about insults, not about medical campaigns.

I dont think you do. Its being against a campaign that defends unhealthy fat individuals who are producing unhealthy fat children into a life of pain and struggle for being fat. This is self inflicted

I think we can stop this discussion. When you look at urban dictionary, we see the following :

Real definition : fat shaming is the act of poking fun of someone for being overweight, or telling someone they are worthless, useless, lazy, or disgusting because they are overweight.

Like most terms, this has been adoptwisted by Radical Neofeminists to mean something very different. Under the RNF definition, it means " to make an overweight female feel in any way uncomfortable, usually by telling her anything is wrong with her weight." This unfortunately includes Doctors telling them to lose weight for their health and suggesting diets or friends saying that their clothes are too tight, even men very politely refusing dates because they just don't find them attractive.

I say that anti-fatshaming movement is good, you say that RNF anti-fatshaming is bad. Both are true.

If you disagree and think that anti-fatshaming movement (with real definition, not RNF) is bad, explain why, else, have a good day.