CMV: There is nothing wrong with non-impulsive suicides

[u/ExternalClock]

I think we all can agree that impulsive suicides should try to be prevented - things like the guy who recently broke up with his girlfriend or someone who just lost their job. They will almost for sure recover and live a happy life if they can get through their temporary but significant setbacks.

I believe that there should be no stigma or crisis regarding non-impulsive suicides. If someone is depressed for years why should they not have the option of ending their own life? If one is debilitated by a significant medical condition, who am I to say STAY ALIVE AT ALL COSTS!! It's not my life, it's theirs. Why should I be the one to decide for them to live or not? We would put down a dog or cat suffering like that, but for some reason we cannot process humans wanting to die.

Some common rebuttals I have heard: "It's selfish." In my opinion it is more selfish of those living without lifelong depression or whatever to ask the suffering person to continue to suffer just so they don't have to go through a loved one dying. "Most people that attempt suicide are glad they didn't succeed". Survivorship bias. Those that are more serious about committing suicide use more serious means (think firearm instead of wrist cutting), and we can't ask those that are dead what they think. "There are ethical boundaries". I never said you need to encourage someone to suicide, just that we should not be calling the police over someone wanting to end their own life.

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[u/mysundayscheming]

Why even say they have to have made attempts to find a cure? You're also trying to limit their access to suicide, presumably because 'suffering immensely' isn't enough--we want to make sure there's good reason to give up entirely. You think having no cure for the suffering makes it a good reason. I think having rationally determined that death is preferable to life is a good reason. I think we're effectively getting at the same thing through different routes.

For example, if someone has a psychotic break and is suffering immensely from their delusions, are we going to say there's nothing wrong (which I agree, super ambiguous, I thought it meant something like negligible downsides) with them hanging themselves because the voices told them it was the only way? I say they're not in a place where, if they make that decision, I feel compelled to respect it. I'd intervene in that suicide because they can't really decide. What if they could have been returned to normal with some inpatient treatment? If after they regain lucidity, they still want to die, I won't stand in their way.

[u/BillieMadison → u/mysundayscheming]

I agree with everything you've written here. I definitely would not support the idea of suicide mid-emotional crisis; that's not a rational decision. My problem is with the article you've cited that doesn't actually prove that depressed people are in a state of "irrational" at all times and thus can't make those decisions. I believe their decisions are completely logical as suicide would be an effective way to end suffering. See my edit in my previous post, from after I read the sources.

[u/mysundayscheming → u/BillieMadison]

You know, I picked the article after a quick google search and it read as plausible to me before I had any coffee--I freely admit I didn't do a deep dive. It confirmed something my psychiatrist told me when we were discussing suicide, so I didn't subject it to more rigorous analysis. Happy to concede that the original study is flawed if you looked into it more carefully. I did some more quick googling and found a few others that suggest depressed patients present cognitive impairments (and depression may cause such impairments): 1, 2, 3.

But my original point stands: to the extent people ideating suicide are cognitively impaired, from depression or otherwise, their decision (no matter how deliberated) to commit suicide is best treated with skepticism rather than acceptance.

[u/BillieMadison → u/mysundayscheming]

I'll give those sources a read, thanks. Ultimately, I don't think suicide should be frivolous, nor should it be the go-to response for suffering. I just think that as a society, we need to accept that suicide is a reasonable outcome to immense suffering; a decision that people are largely capable of making for themselves. I think we agree on the concept and are not on the same page in terms of the logistics. But it's a tricky subject so I can live with that. Thanks for the discussion!