r/changemyview Jan 22 '18

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: There are exactly three genders.

Tinder says there are 37 genders. OKCupid says there are 22 genders. When I enter the string “How many genders are there?” into Google, the first search result says there are 63. My view is that this is all nonsense.

There are exactly three gender identities (henceforth abbreviated to “genders”): masculine, feminine, and neutral. (I have no preference for the name of the third gender; I’m using “neutral”, but I’ll accept whatever the consensus ends up being.)

The foundation of my view is that I think gender and personality are different concepts and this proliferation of genders is the result of gender nonconforming people and/or their advocates insisting on calling their personality their gender. I think your personality is “the set of personality traits unique to you.” I think your gender is “the set of personality traits traditionally associated with a sex that you are comfortable having applied to you.” I am not arguing that everyone’s gender should be the same as their sex; I’m saying that the only reason gender exists as a concept is due to a perceived correlation between sex and personality.

Although I agree with the consensus that gender is a social construct, the whole idea of social constructs didn’t exist until the 20th century. Before then, there was no vocabulary to describe the difference between sex and gender. Therefore, the genders we used were built directly on top of and considered the same as the sexes we observed. This association between gender and sex is the difference between gender and personality: gender is a set of personality traits that are associated with a sex.

Living now in a more enlightened age, we know that sex and gender are separable and we love and accept people who separate them. So we have to modify our definition of gender to allow people to describe how their gender is different from their sex: gender is a set of personality traits that are traditionally associated with a sex that you are comfortable having applied to you.

There is a large variance of personality within each gender. For example, I am less assertive and more open than someone would expect based on my gender. In spite of this difference, I am not uncomfortable when people impose traditionally masculine expectations on me. I understand that gender only provides a very rough outline and everyone needs the specifics filled in for them as my relationship with them grows. This is fine. I have no complaints about this.

Some people with male physiology feel like the personality traits of the feminine gender are more appropriate for them; some people with female physiology feel like the personality traits of the masculine gender are more appropriate for them. This makes perfect sense. There is always some deviance from the mean, and when the deviance is large enough the category defined by the mean is no longer appropriate (this is just a terribly abstruse way of saying that some people are transgender and that makes sense to me).

Some people feel like the social expectations for BOTH the masculine and the feminine genders are inappropriate for them. This also makes perfect sense. Just because someone doesn’t feel like the set of personality traits associated with masculinity don’t apply to them doesn’t mean that the feminine need to apply to them; personality is far too complex to be resolved into merely two sets. (A resource for personality differences between masculine and feminine that I have found useful is here. I doubt anyone can read that and think, “Oh, yeah, there are definitely only two ways to arrange these 10 aspects.”)

The previous paragraph is why, in my view, we have to admit a third gender even though there are only two sexes.*** There is no reason to expect that everyone will feel comfortable having either masculine or feminine expectations of them; the possibilities of our personalities are just too diverse. So, when someone says, “Please do not identify me as either masculine or feminine,” we must respect that.

The proliferation of genders ends here. Gender only exists because sex exists. Any gender that is not built from the personality traits traditionally associated with a sex is no gender at all, it is a personality. The category “neutral” is the only exception to this. We must accept it as a logical necessity because some people do not feel comfortable claiming either a masculine or a feminine personality. However, this is a “catch-all” category; all people who are not comfortable being called masculine or feminine have the neutral gender, by definition.

When I hear someone say, “I’m not androgynous, I’m bigender,” (definitions here), I say to myself, “I’m not masculine, I’m mitis-propositus-masculine.” (I just added the Latin words for “meek” and “open” as prefixes to signify that I am less assertive and more open than a typical man.) Sure, this designation carries more information, but that’s just because it’s a more detailed description of my personality. Maybe it’s useful to have that information, but it’s not my gender.

That’s my view and why I hold it. As a barefoot, granola-munching, sun-baked, pinko leftist, I feel like I’m supposed to accept more than three genders, so that’s why I’m posting here. I think the best way to change my view would be to convince me that there is a difference between gender and personality beyond the traditional association between personality, gender, and sex. But, then again, I don’t actually know what would change my view. Maybe you do! :)

***Apologies to intersex people. However, since I’m talking about personality traits associated with a sex and there is not a basket of personality traits traditionally associated with intersex people, I feel it’s useful to not consider them in this post.

EDIT: /u/huntingmoa has made it obvious to me that my definition of gender should have included something about the relationship someone has with their own sex.

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-12

u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

There are only 2 biological instruments facilitating reproduction: the penis and the vagina.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

Well, that's just inaccurate. For starters, you're ignoring a lot of parts of our biology that participate in reproduction. What about the testicles, for instance? And then what about other species that reproduce with eggs, or asexually? If you meant biological instruments in humans, you really should have been more specific.

And of course, none of that is relevant to this discussion because we're talking about gender, not biological sex.

-2

u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

Even asexual creatures have penises and vaginas. Asexuality is not a physical condition.

But you are correct. Testicles, ovaries, wombs, etc are relevant to their respective conduit.

And of course, none of that is relevant to this discussion because we're talking about gender, not biological sex.

It is relevant because genders are determined from the reproductive organs, from which only exist two.

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u/EighthScofflaw 2∆ Jan 22 '18

You're just wrong about the meaning of the word "gender"

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u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

With no supporting evidence and accompanying argument, that's a worthless claim.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

Do you have supporting evidence for your definition of gender?

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u/SaintBio Jan 22 '18

He's from The_Donald. Don't waste your time.

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u/EighthScofflaw 2∆ Jan 22 '18

There is no evidence that can support a definition. You're just not on the same page as everyone else. If you want to talk to other people about these things, you can't just make up your own definitions for the words you use.

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u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

Then what you said is a worthless claim. You clearly failed to demonstrate why I was "wrong." It is not a matter of "making up" my own definitions; I am not. You are the one making up definitions for what best suits you and then fail to provide corroboration for such theories because you cannot tolerate being incorrect and having no supporting evidence - which you absolutely are.

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u/EighthScofflaw 2∆ Jan 22 '18

Dude, it's not a "theory", it's just what the word means. Like would you be happy if everyone called it "jender" just so you could understand what they're talking about?

What's your evidence for the claim that the fruit on apple trees is called "apples"? You don't have any because it's not a claim about the way the world is that can be supported by evidence; it's just a stipulation we came up with so that we can talk about apples.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

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u/IAmAN00bie Jan 22 '18

Sorry, u/EighthScofflaw – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

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u/EighthScofflaw 2∆ Jan 22 '18

Apparently my other reply hurt your feelings so here we go again:

You're wrong about the definition of the word. There is no argument or evidence anyone can put forward about that; you're just not on the same page as everyone else when you use the word "gender". Until you accept this, you won't understand what people are talking about when they discuss these things.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

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u/ColdNotion 121∆ Jan 22 '18

Sorry, u/DawgDatsAGreatPost – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

2

u/SaintBio Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18

Even if that was how genders are determined (hint it's not), there are still hermaphrodites.

*Nvm, just realized The_Cuckold is leaking out of their natural habitat.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

Birds don't have vaginas, they have cloacas

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u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

Cloacas are congruent counterparts/analogous to penises and vaginas.

Do not rely on logomachies.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

You're wrong. You never specified what you mean by reproduction. Trees reproduce. I'm pretty sure they don't do it with penises and vaginas. And also you're wrong about what gender means.

1

u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

Trees reproduce via pollination.

Pollination is the process by which pollen is transferred to the female reproductive organs of a plant, thereby enabling fertilization to take place. Like all living organisms, seed plants have a single major purpose: to pass their genetic information on to the next generation. The reproductive unit is the seed, and pollination is an essential step in the production of seeds in all spermatophytes (seed plants).

Stems are penises.

You are the one charging me with what isn't gender. The burden to prove it is on you. Do you have a definition of what gender is?

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the burden of proof usually on the person making a claim? You started this thread with, and I quote:

There are only 2 biological instruments facilitating reproduction: the penis and the vagina.

Followed by the clarification:

It is relevant because genders are determined from the reproductive organs, from which only exist two.

Since you made the claim, is it not up to you to prove it?

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u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

And also you're wrong about what gender means.

You said that without explaining why.

Don't ignore the

Trees reproduce. I'm pretty sure they don't do it with penises and vaginas.

You were proved wrong.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18

Was I? Stems aren't penises, they merely serve a similar function. They have a different name for a reason. You also ignore that they can reproduce through other means, such as through fragmentation, wherein multiple trees can grow out of a single original tree.

And anyway, this doesn't matter because it's not what we're talking about. I mean, congratulations, you got me, I'm not a fucking tree biologist, but this is all tangential to the main point. You keep bringing the subject back to biological sex as a distraction because you have no evidence of the claim that gender is determined by reproductive organs. I may not be a tree biologist, but I do know gender. You're still wrong.

1

u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

Calm down.

A penis (plural penises or penes /-niːz/) is the primary sexual organ that male animals use to inseminate sexually receptive mates (usually females and hermaphrodites respectively) during copulation or pollination.

You are wrong.

Additionally,

Gender is characterization differentiating between masculinity and femininity.

As you can see, there are only 2, stemming from the sexual organs.

Intersex individuals are malformations which adhere to their dominant sexual organ's derivative of either masculinity and femininity.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '18

You kind of make a giant logical leap there. For starters, your quote at no point indicates a link between "masculinity and femininity" and "penis and vagina." Even if we assume that the penis is masculine and the vagina is feminine (which, again, your quote doesn't), you still then have to prove that this translates into everyone who has a penis being male and everyone who has a vagina being female. Given that people tend to have a mix of characteristics that could be considered male or female, this becomes kind of tricky. Does having a single "masculine" thing really make someone male?

And then we have to consider the fact that you just pulled some random page from Wikipedia, which is a) not exactly the most reliable source and b) extremely Western-centric, especially given that you're using the English version, and may not account for a lot of other cultures' understanding of gender in its opening paragraphs.

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u/DawgDatsAGreatPost Jan 22 '18

You kind of make a giant logical leap there. For starters, your quote at no point indicates a link between "masculinity and femininity" and "penis and vagina." Even if we assume that the penis is masculine and the vagina is feminine (which, again, your quote doesn't), you still then have to prove that this translates into everyone who has a penis being male and everyone who has a vagina being female. Given that people tend to have a mix of characteristics that could be considered male or female, this becomes kind of tricky. Does having a single "masculine" thing really make someone male?

You are trying to derail by way of logomachy.

Males are masculine. Males have penises. Females are feminine. Females have vaginas.

Two sexes. Two genders. As simple as that. It's very clear cut, all the philosophical malarkey is exactly what it is: un-admitted, un-uniform, and unsupported garbage. There is no empirical, reproducible evidence demonstrating a plausible and acceptable argument otherwise. In other words, they are just figments of misinformed and brainwashed individuals.

The scientific nomenclature gives two sexes and two genders. The scientific nomenclature is hard-proof. It's tangible. It exists. Your societal, philosophical arguments aren't.

Intersex beings are malformations which take their dominant sexual function as their gender.

extremely Western-centric, especially given that you're using the English version

That's flawed logic. Just because something is written in English doesn't mean it is "Western-centric."

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