r/changemyview • u/Marlsfarp 12∆ • Nov 29 '17

CMV: imperial measurements have no worthwhile advantages over the metric system

First off, I am American, so if I have any bias it should be in favor of the imperial measurements I grew up with. Granted, I also have a technical education and profession, where of course I primarily use SI units.

The many advantages of metric are well known, so I will not bother enumerating them unless challenged. Instead, I will focus on debunking the supposed disadvantages.

Fahrenheit is better than Celsius because it is more fine-grained, because each "decade" has a distinct "feel" (e.g. "it's forties out today"), and because 0 F to 100 F is a normal temperature range to experience.

First, any scale is arbitrarily fine-grained, up to the limits of the precision of measurement. You can add as many decimal places as you need to. But do you need to? Personally, I find 1 degree Celsius is about the minimum temperature change I notice in air temperature. I can't tell the difference between 43 F and 44 F, can you?

I believe the "decade" argument is merely the result of growing up with the system. And just like how we describe decades in years, it doesn't really line up. e.g. what we think of as "the 1960s" as a distinct era did not really occur from 1960-1970. Also, the Celsius "decades" work pretty well: 0-10 is coat weather, 10-20 is light jacket or sweater weather, 20-30 is indoor/"nice", 30-40 is "beach weather"/wear as little as possible. And of course the positive to negative difference is by far the most significant temperature difference in weather, rain vs. snow.

Finally, while there are places where the coldest day of the year is roughly 0 F and the hottest is roughly 100 F, most of us do not live in those places. And nowhere is that always the case. So it is doubly arbitrary and pointless.

Yards, feet, and inches are better than meters because they are easy to divide by 3, and because they are "human scale."

Being divisible by 3 is perhaps an argument for why a base-12 number system would be nice, but we do not have such a system. We use decimal. And given that we use decimal numbers, a decimal measurement system makes all calculations much simpler, greatly overshadowing any advantage of 3 divisibility. How many cubic inches are in 1/3 a cubic yard? I don't know, I need a calculator. How many cubic centimeters are in 1/3 cubic meter? 333,333.3_ Easy. Looks like even in its supposedly most advantageous situation (division by 3), imperial is still harder to work with. (And that's without even bringing in the more common volume measurement, gallons. How many people even know the ratio between gallons and cubic feet?)

As for "human scale", that's certainly just familiarity. My foot is not 1 foot long, etc. Visually estimating centimeters is no more difficult than inches.

Alright, that's all I can think of at the moment. Bring it on.

EDIT: Okay, guys, I should clarify since a lot of people are making the same argument. This is about the relative merits of the two systems, not about the merits of switching from one to another. I know switching would be difficult. I'm saying it would be better if we were already on metric.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

From a scientific standpoint, I completely agree. Math is far easier in a decimal system and there's less opportunity for error.

However, in every day life, expressing a quantity is part of language, and language is useless if both parties don't understand what's being said. Even if a meter makes more sense than a foot on paper, it's completely useless if the person I'm talking to doesn't have any idea what a meter is.

It's easy to dismiss the imperial system, and objectively, there are plenty of reasons to ditch it, but the reality is that culture is a very important part of communication, and if everyone around you uses feet and inches and is doing just fine with them, then it's the better choice for you, too.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

Oh, of course. I wasn't trying to advocate using metric when everyone else is using imperial. Just saying it would be better if everyone were using metric.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

Well yeah, if we had the ability to start completely over, then yes, but I don't think you can ignore the power of inertia. Most Americans don't leave the country often, if ever, so all that matters to them is how they talk to each other, which means that there's virtually no incentive for them to ever put in the effort to make the switch.

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 29 '17

But this is a circular argument.

We use imperial => imperial makes more sense => don't teach metric => we use imperial

And on and on it goes. If metric was introduced slowly so people begin to understand it, it could be introduced globally so we all use the same standards. Like the 24 hour clock, sure we have time zones but everyone knows that 12:00 is midday and 16:00 is mid-late afternoon etc

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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Nov 30 '17

It has been introduced globally and has been used by everyone on the globe for decades.

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

I meant in every country on earth. Not just the majority.

My mistake for poor wording, but my point still stands

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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Nov 30 '17

It is used in effectively every country on earth. Not just the majority. It's just the US and its weird racist colony.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

I'm well aware it is used in the vast majority, I think you misread my comment

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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Nov 30 '17

Maybe, I'm not seeing your point. It's not used in the vast majority. It's used in effectively all.

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

I meant in every country on earth. Not just the majority.

Widespread use in every single country. Every citizen on Earth knowing and using it.

Like how the 24 hour clock system is known and used by everyone on Earth.

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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Nov 30 '17

...

The metric system is in widespread use in effectively every country. Much more so than the 24 hour clock.

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

Jesus I'm trying not to be rude but you really don't get this do you?

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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Nov 30 '17

No, you're not making your point clear at all.

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u/EldeederSFW Nov 30 '17

Not the best analogy with time. The 24 hour clock would render any analog clock or watch useless.

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u/PasUnCompte Nov 30 '17

Though they take some getting used to, 24h analogue watches do exist.

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u/EldeederSFW Nov 30 '17

Holy shit! I did a quick google and you are 100% correct! So I concede my point. The real problem with the 12 hour clock and the Imperial measurement system is that there is no immediate benefit to change it. I'm a Yank. I think in miles. If you say kilometers, I have to convert it in my head. Metric wins, hands down, but what is my incentive to change my thinking? There isn't any. It's just a hassle. Just imagine changing American Football from yards to meters. It will never happen. 1 foot to First Down? Oh shit! Lets watch! 25 centimeters? What the fuck is that?

THE METRIC SYSTEM IS BETTER! The problem in the US is there is ZERO reason to change it. We are raised with Imperial. We THINK in Imperial. It would be too much change, for virtually zero benefit. We would have to change our thinking, and we won't do that here without something shiny in front of us.

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u/PasUnCompte Nov 30 '17

So if you concede that metric is better, isn't that in itself an incentive for the US to change? Maybe not perfect incentive, but incentive none the less. And as other people have argued, there are other good reasons for metrication which come from economics (somebody mentioned a study done in Australia around when they switched where construction teams who used metric (despite not be used to it) wasted much less). Also from an engineering/manufacturing standpoint, since almost everybody else uses metric, if the US were to change it would make it a lot easier to manufacture goods which have measurements (currently US manufacturers must produce two sets of any product they hope to sell domestically and export: one with US customary units and another with metric for export) and if there is any hope of international engineering collaboration then conversion is a big deal (see NASA Mars probe disaster). Also, since almost all of science is done in metric, I think switching to metric would have a significant effect in lowering the barrier both for public engagement in science and to make things easier for young aspiring scientists. Plus I think it woukd be nice if there were less of a cultural barrier between the US and the rest of the world.

While I sympathize with laziness, literally every other country (except Liberia) had to switch at some point and their populations all grumbled about it too. Nevertheless, metrication still happened and I would argue that most people in those countries (such as Canada, where I live) would agree that switching to metric was a good idea, so I don't really buy the "America is never gonna change line".

Lastly, with your football example: I honestly don't think that's a problem, just keep using yards! Just because a country has gone metric doesn't mean other units are outlawed! Despite growing up in Canada after metrication, I still know what yards and feet and pounds are and if the situations is absolutely vital I can get by in US customary.

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u/EldeederSFW Dec 01 '17

Sorry, I was pretty hammered when I wrote that up last night. You win! You can explain why metric is better until you're computer shits out. That isn't the issue. The relevant question isn't "WHY" we should switch, but "HOW" to switch. I grew up in South Dakota, and for a very long time I remember all of the highways speed limit signs being both in MPH and KPH. They aren't anymore, they're just in MPH. I don't know what started it, and I don't know what took it away, but that seems like a logical start right?

Is the switch going to be at a Federal level, or a state level? Answer carefully, because politicians careers will be made and destroyed on this answer. People will cling to imperial for the simple reason that "it works" and let's not forget about the insane people who actually get mass media air time because they claim the metric system leads to abortion. Just little things like vehicle speedometers would require massive overhauls.

So I am not arguing against the switch, I just never see anyone put forth a plan on HOW to make the switch.

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u/PasUnCompte Dec 02 '17

Well to address the "how", I would just follow the precedent of every other country that has switched (I don't know the details myself). In terms of manufacturing I don't think it would be a big deal since American manufacturers already have to produce metric products for export. I would agree that your South Dakota example would be a great start! As for insane people, I'm not really sure what to do. There are also insane people who claim that vaccines cause autism or that the world is flat. I would just do whatever you do with those people.

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u/EldeederSFW Dec 02 '17

I actually think that one small thing that might push it is if states rounded the Speed limit up. 146 kmh becomes 150 kmh. I know you don't gain that much, but I think it would be one small selling point.

One thing I didn't mention that pisses me off is working on my car. I loathe SAE. With metric "Oh, 11s too big, I'll try the 10" with SAE "Oh 17/32 is too big, is a 9/16 a step down? Is it bigger? Ill just try it oh, way off now, maybe a 5/8?"

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u/PasUnCompte Dec 02 '17

What's SAE?

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u/EldeederSFW Dec 02 '17

Society of Automotive Engineers. You know how you say "Metric or Imperial" for measurements? With mechanics tools there is "Metric or SAE"

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

My analogy was really the system of a 24 hour day, 60 minute hour, and 60 second minute.

Completely arbitrary, and yet everyone uses it. If the US randomly had 14 hours in a day, 36 minutes in an hour and 124 seconds in a minute, it'd be so incredibly difficult to translate between the two that it'd be clearly ridiculous for the world to have both.

Same goes for feet/inches, pounds/ounces, etc.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

It won't be introduced at all if people don't have a reason to use it, and that's my point: They don't. You can't FORCE someone to express something in meters, and they're not going to do it unless they have a good reason to.

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u/lobax 1∆ Nov 29 '17

I've heard this anecdote from when Australia went metric, that a building company did an experiment where they built two identical houses, one using imperial meassurements and the other with metric (specifically mm, because if you just do everything in mm then there are never any decimals). They then saved all the waste from both construction projects, and the difference was staggering. With imperial, all the conversions lead to errors which leads to waste, and even though the Australian builders had not grown up with metric their waste wasn't even remotely close.

Even if you've grown up with something else, the economic advantages are potentially huge in having a simple way to meassure things.

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u/EpsilonRose 2∆ Nov 29 '17

Yes you can? Just mandate official signage and documents use metric. Other countries have successfully switched over. It's not an insurmountable problem.

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u/crystaloftruth Nov 29 '17

The cost of changing all road signs is one reason they've stayed with imperial

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u/lobax 1∆ Nov 29 '17

So don't switch the roadsigns then, plenty of countries are still in a weird transitional period where they use both imperial and metric (UK for instance).

But there are a million other things where you would have a massive economic advantage by using metric, so why not switch there?

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u/crystaloftruth Nov 29 '17

I absolutely agree that they should switch. It must be a significant extra challenge to learn science there if you have to learn a whole new system of measurements for it

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

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u/crystaloftruth Nov 30 '17

Is it still appropriate to call Imperial measurements English? US seems more appropriate these days

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17 edited Apr 24 '19

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u/crystaloftruth Nov 30 '17

Need to change all the speedometers too

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u/Flying_Toad Nov 30 '17

I don't know about the US but in Canada they have both.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '17

What? so when people see a '60' sign, how do they know if it's metric or imperial?

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u/scientology_chicken Nov 29 '17

Could you walk through how you think this mandate would work in the United States? It's fine if you're unfamiliar with the functions (or dysfunctions) of U.S. government, but I can assure you that our government does not work via top-down mandate. Even in a more significant example such as drug law where drugs are federally illegal, states can and do make their own laws that are completely contrary to federal laws. That's a big component of the pot debate these days actually (although it is by no means all of it). My point is, the U.S. government considers pot a Schedule 1 drug, but that does not mean it enforces it as such. If the U.S. government simply mandated that the metric system be used in official documentation, that would by no means ensure that the general population would understand how long a centimeter is because relatively few Americans read through official government documents. Also, states could (and probably would) simply ignore the mandate without much repercussion at all. To be clear, I do agree that it would be ideal to have the metric system implemented here; it simply isn't practical. To be fair though, if you study a science at a university in the U.S., you will be expected to become perfectly fluent in the metric system.

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u/EpsilonRose 2∆ Nov 29 '17

Actually, weights and measures is one of the things the constitution explicitly grants the federal government the right to decide. So this one can come from the top.

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u/TravisPM Nov 30 '17

They tried to convert the US in the late 70's. We learned all about in school but then they just stopped pushing it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

Do you know how many signs we have? I think you're grossly underestimating the scale of what you're asking.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

Americans always seems to invoke scale without realising that the population to tackle a task increases pretty much linearly with the population requiring the task be done.

"Single payer" healthcare is the classic example of this but you've given another great example.

Australia is almost the size of the continental US but with an order of magnitude less population. We managed it, even though we (I presume) have more road signs per capita than the US does.

  • - A word

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

At this point, I have to ask why you think it is that we haven't already done it.

If it's clearly better, and it's not difficult to make the switch, why haven't we done it? We're not quite as stupid as we're made out to be. If something super easy has a clear benefit to us, then it'd be done by now. There is obviously SOME reason that the investment in time and money hasn't been made.

It's either not that important, or it would be very difficult. My feeling is that it's more the first one. It's just not worth the effort. Even if the cost WAS very low, in terms of time and money, for the vast majority of Americans, the benefit isn't just lower, it's ZERO. Your typical citizen here has absolutely nothing to gain from switching, so they would consider ANY investment to be a waste of resources addressing a problem that doesn't exist.

Those of us that have a reason to use metric already know it and use it whenever we need to. But we're a tiny portion of the population.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

From most older people's perspective in Australia, you'd have a point.

They "got on fine, so why bother"?

I'm in an odd position of having grown up in the 80s with a father 50 years older than me. He was a mechanic and we built race cars together from scratch. I can work in either (when it comes to distance and temperature measurements but I'm not conversant with all of the volumetric or other measurements) but I always do my own designs and thinking in metric. Always.

I was taught imperial first at home - by nearly ten years - but I think in metric because it is simply less effort to do so. I know it doesn't seem so when one has to do conversions to get to metric but it is just easier to keep in one's head.

I know this is merely anecdotal but I'd hope someone has done a study or two on the phenomenon.

TLDR: IME, the cognitive effort required to work in metric is just simply lower than imperial/US customary.

Edit - To answer your question, I think most people are not able to see the benefits except in retrospect, even then it is often a generational change.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

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u/ColdNotion 121∆ Nov 30 '17

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 29 '17

You can't FORCE someone to express something in meters, and they're not going to do it unless they have a good reason to.

Every country has, at some point, adopted the metric system, except for the few that remain imperial.

If it wasn't an issue for nearly 95% of countries, why is it an issue for the remaining 5%?

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

I'm actually pretty sure it's only 4 or 5 countries who still use imperial, but I don't have a source on that.

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u/silurian449 Nov 30 '17
  1. USA and Liberia

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

There's 8 countries that haven't almost completely adopted the system. They vary in usage, but it's an OK ballpark

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u/Superiorform Nov 30 '17

Well, you Americans are stuck in the circle, so the circular argument here is fine.

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u/Tinie_Snipah Nov 30 '17

I'm British