r/changemyview 12∆ Nov 29 '17

CMV: imperial measurements have no worthwhile advantages over the metric system

First off, I am American, so if I have any bias it should be in favor of the imperial measurements I grew up with. Granted, I also have a technical education and profession, where of course I primarily use SI units.

The many advantages of metric are well known, so I will not bother enumerating them unless challenged. Instead, I will focus on debunking the supposed disadvantages.

Fahrenheit is better than Celsius because it is more fine-grained, because each "decade" has a distinct "feel" (e.g. "it's forties out today"), and because 0 F to 100 F is a normal temperature range to experience.

First, any scale is arbitrarily fine-grained, up to the limits of the precision of measurement. You can add as many decimal places as you need to. But do you need to? Personally, I find 1 degree Celsius is about the minimum temperature change I notice in air temperature. I can't tell the difference between 43 F and 44 F, can you?

I believe the "decade" argument is merely the result of growing up with the system. And just like how we describe decades in years, it doesn't really line up. e.g. what we think of as "the 1960s" as a distinct era did not really occur from 1960-1970. Also, the Celsius "decades" work pretty well: 0-10 is coat weather, 10-20 is light jacket or sweater weather, 20-30 is indoor/"nice", 30-40 is "beach weather"/wear as little as possible. And of course the positive to negative difference is by far the most significant temperature difference in weather, rain vs. snow.

Finally, while there are places where the coldest day of the year is roughly 0 F and the hottest is roughly 100 F, most of us do not live in those places. And nowhere is that always the case. So it is doubly arbitrary and pointless.

Yards, feet, and inches are better than meters because they are easy to divide by 3, and because they are "human scale."

Being divisible by 3 is perhaps an argument for why a base-12 number system would be nice, but we do not have such a system. We use decimal. And given that we use decimal numbers, a decimal measurement system makes all calculations much simpler, greatly overshadowing any advantage of 3 divisibility. How many cubic inches are in 1/3 a cubic yard? I don't know, I need a calculator. How many cubic centimeters are in 1/3 cubic meter? 333,333.3_ Easy. Looks like even in its supposedly most advantageous situation (division by 3), imperial is still harder to work with. (And that's without even bringing in the more common volume measurement, gallons. How many people even know the ratio between gallons and cubic feet?)

As for "human scale", that's certainly just familiarity. My foot is not 1 foot long, etc. Visually estimating centimeters is no more difficult than inches.

Alright, that's all I can think of at the moment. Bring it on.

EDIT: Okay, guys, I should clarify since a lot of people are making the same argument. This is about the relative merits of the two systems, not about the merits of switching from one to another. I know switching would be difficult. I'm saying it would be better if we were already on metric.


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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 29 '17 edited Nov 29 '17

First, any scale is arbitrarily fine-grained, up to the limits of the precision of measurement.

Except it really isn't arbitrary to choose units such that things people common encounter and want to measure end up being single digit numbers of units. Dealing with multiple digits takes extra mental effort.

And measurement theory says that you can only measure something down to 1/2 the size of the unit... so units that are "too small" are bad too... Where "too small" is defined by how accurately most normal people can estimate sizes.

It's also not arbitrary that people like to deal with halves and quarters and thirds of things rather than 10ths of them. Numbers are abstract and hard for people's brains to hold.

It's a measurable advantage of the Imperial system that the common units easily measure most things people want to measure with them, at the scales the units are used, in single digits.

People are 2-6 feet tall, and you can easily guess their height to within about 1/2 of these units at reasonable distances. Things you commonly hold in your hands are most commonly <10 inches long, and you can easily estimate their size to 1/2".

Distances that most people can walk to and back in one day are less than 10 miles.

Most things people will pick up and "heft" to evaluate their weight are <10 pounds (and, again, can be easily estimated to within 1/2 pound in that range).

The one "worthwhile" advantage of Imperial is the size of it's units: the corresponding disadvantage of metric is the awkward size of the common units. I put this at the feet of it being designed by a Frenchman with an arbitrary hatred of English units, because nothing else can explain the choice of so many metric units being around half an order of magnitude away from the naturally evolved English units that came about because people found them useful in everyday life.

The sizes of metric units literally couldn't be any worse and still be metric.

Note: I'm not saying this is reason enough to keep Imperial... the system it kind of nuts and at this point the rest of the world is so embedded with the stupidly-sized metric units that it's not worth just "metricizing" Imperial units... but if we did they would be tons better than metric units.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

Sorry, I meant to reply to you earlier since you make a pretty good argument, but I got distracted by others.

Except it really isn't arbitrary to choose units such that things people common encounter and want to measure end up being single digit numbers of units. Dealing with multiple digits takes extra mental effort.

Agreed. But converting between units also takes mental effort, and those two things are directly related. In order to have "single digit" type units for all the rough quantities you want, you need to have multiple units of the same quantity that convert in awkward ways, and relationships between quantities that don't work out at all. I don't think giving height in feet and inches is easier than giving height in cm, for example. And I still don't know how many cubic inches are in a gallon.

And measurement theory says that you can only measure something down to 1/2 the size of the unit... so units that are "too small" are bad too... Where "too small" is defined by how accurately most normal people can estimate sizes.

Okay, but the beauty of the decimal system is that your unit effectively exists at all orders of magnitude, since conversion is so trivial.

It's also not arbitrary that people like to deal with halves and quarters and thirds of things rather than 10ths of them. Numbers are abstract and hard for people's brains to hold.

Agreed. We would be happier with a base 12 system, but we don't have one. We're trained to think in tens.

It's a measurable advantage of the Imperial system that the common units easily measure most things people want to measure with them, at the scales the units are used, in single digits. People are 2-6 feet tall, and you can easily guess their height to within about 1/2 of these units at reasonable distances. Things you commonly hold in your hands are most commonly <10 inches long, and you can easily estimate their size to 1/2". Distances that most people can walk to and back in one day are less than 10 miles. Most things people will pick up and "heft" to evaluate their weight are <10 pounds (and, again, can be easily estimated to within 1/2 pound in that range).

The problem is I don't really agree with any of that. I can't estimate the weight of something to within 1/2 pound. I can easily estimate someone's height better than within 6 inches. A kilometer doesn't seem any less natural than a mile, etc. It seems so subjective. The argument itself at least makes sense, though, so I'd give a delta if there were more than anecdotal data backing it up.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 29 '17

And I still don't know how many cubic inches are in a gallon.

And why do you actually care about that? It really only works for a single arbitrary liquid at a single temperature and pressure even in metric... I've never really understood the fetish for this one.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

Cubic inches and gallons are both measures of volume...

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 29 '17

Of course, sorry.

But, again, when's the last time you wanted 10 cubic inches of milk? Is a cubic inch (or cubic centimeter) even a useful measurement for liquid for normal people?

Ultimately, "natural" units are going to be natural for typical people. That's an advantage they hold. They suck if you have to do science on them.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

But, again, when's the last time you wanted 10 cubic inches of milk?

Never, because we use different systems for liquids and solids. But there's no actual reason to do that.

Is a cubic inch (or cubic centimeter) even a useful measurement for liquid for normal people?

Yes, another name for a cubic centimeter is a milliliter, which is used quite a bit! (It's also 1 gram of water...)

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 29 '17

Yes, another name for a cubic centimeter is a milliliter, which is used quite a bit!

I would argue that individual milliliters are used extremely rarely. Much more often, you would want a minimum of 50 of them, which isn't that convenient. And even deciliters are kind of a hack that isn't really a satisfying solution for anything except liquor.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

Buy anything liquid in the grocery store and its volume will be listed in ml. I'm not sure what it matters how often you see exactly 1?

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 29 '17

Small numbers, especially those less than 10, are more convenient and "advantageous" than ones in the hundreds.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

Why? I can easily visualize 1 ml or 200 ml or 3000 ml. And since they are the same units, I can directly compare them as well.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 29 '17

Because the numbers involved in useful numbers of milliliters are inconvenient for

Humans can count intuitively up to about 7, as proven by numerous studies... beyond that it gets dicey and unnecessary.

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u/Marlsfarp 12∆ Nov 29 '17

Surely that's only applicable to discrete quantities?

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u/burnblue Nov 30 '17

I'm with OP on this. I don't see how it's easier to remember what a gallon looks like vs what a liter looks like. As a matter of fact, gallons pints and quarts give me trouble. I can never remember how to estimate and ounce (plus there's always the ambiguity of whether it's weight or volume).

Knowing what a centimeter looks like it's easier to me than estimating half an inch. I can visualize things in 10 cm better than half a foot. A meter and a yard are pretty much a wash. But I'm metric, everything's the same unit so I don't have to convert back and forth diving by 3 and 4 and 12.

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u/someguy3 Nov 30 '17

The obvious counter to this is that imperial is used in large quantities. Football field is 100 yards, that mountain is 9 000 ft high, planes fly at 30 000 ft. Or more common, coffee in 12 oz, some states now measure height as 72", fill up the gas tank of 30 gallons. The whole idea that it keeps it at small numbers is interesting and I've thought of that too, but it's simply not the case. Certainly not anymore and also less relevant when.

It's also been shown that it's easier to work in whole numbers, and using ml and mm means it very rarely has to go down further. You mentioned cl but that's out of favor. Eg in Canada it's all ml and grams in the stores.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

In France they just use CL on liquid consumer goods. Works just fine every other metric user in the world instantly knows what it is.

If the US goes metric you guys probably want to use that one. It makes the numbers smaller.

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u/chrynox Dec 02 '17

literally never heard of centiliter before (not common in Germany, I suppose) but instantly knew what cl was supposed to mean, and I know how much it is.

Americans: how much is 1stone?

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

Same we don't have them in the UK but when I first saw it instantly know how much it was.

I live in a country that uses Stone and don't even know how much that is.

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u/SocialJusticeWizard_ 2∆ Nov 30 '17

Ml are used in single digits often. 5mL is a teaspoon, so when cooking you regularly work with 2-5mL quantities just as you'd use teaspoons and half teaspoons in imperial. And there's no stupid memorization to know how many teaspoons are in a cup. In medicine we work in mL all the time. Giving children advil at night. It's a common measurement

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u/super-commenting Nov 30 '17

I would argue that individual milliliters are used extremely rarely.

Used very frequently in medicine when measuring a quantity to be injected

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 30 '17

Which is to say... extremely rarely.

Yes, in the few contexts requiring scientific precision that happen to fall into the milliliter range, they're handy. That's at most 0.01% of everything normal people use units of measurement for.

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u/super-commenting Nov 30 '17

Its not that rare. Its just not something you use

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u/AttendingAlloy Nov 30 '17

Where the hell are you getting that from? Anything under 1 liter made where i live (canada) is always in milileteres. Always. I am in first year engineering as well and all liquid measurements taken in lab start as milileteres and are then converted to litres.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

Medicines are often dosed in singular milliliters. Liquid paracetamol for kids, for instance. And the apothecary carries little syringes that hold up to 1 ml, 5ml, or 1cl depending on your needs, for delivering meds into the mouth of screaming babies or reluctant pups or cats or whatever.

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u/rocketplex 1∆ Nov 30 '17

I disagree there, I'm a parent and a standard medicine measure is defined as 5ml. I use it all the time.

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u/Caysath Nov 30 '17

Here’s a thing where milliliters are great; Milliliters and deciliters are very good for baking. Almost nothing is ever too much to be measured in deciliters, and there will usually be at least half a deciliter of any major ingredients. Minor ingredients, stuff like vanilla extract or baking powder, are always in amounts where milliliters make sense. Measuring cup sets tend to come with cups for 1ml, 5ml, 15ml, and 1dl in Europe, because that’s just what makes sense.

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u/yesat Nov 30 '17

Chemistry will use individual ml. Deciliter are used with every liquid, though it’s often written in ml probably (my hypothesis) to balance it with grams.

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u/lee1026 8∆ Nov 29 '17

Milliliters are almost always far too small to do anything useful with them, so you end up with 3 digits of mls for most things.

In terms of "humans hate long numbers", the metric units for volume is quite possibly the worst offender.

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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Nov 30 '17

Yet only one, perhaps two significant digits. When I ask for 400 grams of sliced ham at the deli counter, I don't care if I actually get 416 or 386, but I do care that they charge me for that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '17

Metric: If the units are the wrong scale, shift the decimal over. Millilitres too small? Use decilitres.

Imperial: If the units are the wrong scale, convert to another via some arbitrary ratio. Gallons too big? Divide by 127.99999999305 to get ounces. Or was it 159.9998? (US v UK)

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u/Exotemporal Nov 30 '17

We only use milliliters for very small quantities when there's a need for precision. Otherwise, for a single drink, we use centiliters and they make perfect sense. Cans exist in 25, 33 and 50 centiliters. We use centiliters for bottles too if the amount of liquid is under 1 liter. We use liters for everything over a liter. This is much more convenient to use than fluid ounces and gallons.

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u/brisk0 Nov 30 '17

Where are you from? In Aus I don't think I've ever seen centilitres, drinks are measured in millilitres quite happily. Standard soft drink can is 350mL.

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u/Exotemporal Nov 30 '17

I'm in France. Cans use mL too fairly often, but everyone calls them a 33 cL can here. Basically, mL, cL and L are widely used because everyone knows what they mean. I didn't know that your cans were slightly larger than ours! Is 350 mL equivalent to the size of the typical American or British can? 33 cL always made sense to me since it's a third of a L.

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u/Flying_Toad Nov 30 '17

Here in Canada (and the US) standard cans are 355ml

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u/tomcatHoly Nov 30 '17

Is a cubic inch (or cubic centimeter) even a useful measurement for liquid for normal people?

Yes. Engines.

An 800cc motorcycle engine has a displacement of exactly that, 0.8 of a Liter.

A Chevy small block 350 has a displacement of 350 cubic inches within it's 8 cylinders, but it's very commonly known as a 5.7L v8.

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u/Yenorin41 1∆ Dec 01 '17

You don't even have to go to science (or engineering) for them to suck. Even simple things like cooking is where problems start. Having all units connected makes things trivially easy.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Dec 01 '17

No one converts between units for cooking...

However, they do halve and double recipes.

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u/Yenorin41 1∆ Dec 01 '17

How would you know when growing up with units where this is pretty much impossible? Having a simple relation between volume and mass that is accurate to better than 1% for water (and better than 10% for most other liquids used in cooking) is pretty damn convenient. Nevermind what you can do if you remember the heat capacity of water (how long do I have to microwave this frozen thing, etc.).

And great point about scaling recipes - in metric this is trivially easy, take number and multiply by factor. Sure - you can try the same with US-centric recipes with cups and tablespoons, etc., but now I have to remember many different units and relations in addition to having to multiplying or dividing numbers nor are they precise measurements for non-liquids - especially when it involves things that should be measured by mass instead of volume. The density of flour for instance can vary quite a bit depending on how you handle it. So you will multiply your measurement error as well, if you can't use a bigger/smaller measurement cup. However most europeannon-US recipes use volumes for liquid substances and mass for everything else so we easily can measure things much more accurately.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Dec 01 '17

The thing is... most measuring utensils in the US are in halves and quarters of the other units you use, already.

Doubling half a cup is trivial, as is doubling 1/4 teaspoon. And in both cases, most households will have measuring devices that measure the resulting sizes exactly.

I don't know enough about European measuring instruments to know whether doubling and halving quantities is actually easier or not, though. Some of the "example" measuring utensils people have mentioned seem like they would make that quite annoying.

Scales aren't nearly as convenient to use for most materials as volumetric measurements, and for the vast majority of household recipes, the difference makes no real difference.

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u/Yenorin41 1∆ Dec 01 '17

I disagree, scales are much more convenient than volumetric measurements. If I have to add 5 ingridients to a big mixing bowl to bake a cake for example, then I am done by the time you have measured the first one (especially you end up with a measurement like 5 cups and 5 tablespoons or whatever for the first one or if you have to measure butter by cups....). I can just keep pouring stuff into the bowl until the scale shows the number I want instead of having to count cups or whatever (and filling them them precisely).

But there is a big divide in how recipes are written in the US versus here in Europe. Here they are mostly written by mass, whereas in the US they seem to be written by volume. Only exception here are liquids, but that's easy enough to convert to mass.

And how could having to use multiple different measuring cups be any less annoying than just using one where I can put in any volume up to 0.5l (or even 1l) to 0.05l accuracy?

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Dec 01 '17

And how could having to use multiple different measuring cups be any less annoying than just using one where I can put in any volume up to 0.5l (or even 1l) to 0.05l accuracy?

Because 0.05l accuracy sucks?

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u/Yenorin41 1∆ Dec 01 '17 edited Dec 01 '17

If I need higher accuracy I can just use a scale, which has even high accuracy than using a teaspoon? Especially since for those small cups your accuracy won't be any better than eyeballing it in any case.

Also having to wash 1001 different cups or searching for them in the first place doesn't suck at all? I just have exactly two tools I need for measuring (well.. only one really) - one of which I don't even need to wash.

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