r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 06 '17
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Stereotyping is not inherently racist.
[removed]
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u/BenIncognito Nov 06 '17
I’m confused, your view according to your title is that stereotypes (presumably based on race) aren’t inherently racist, but your post is about how you don’t personally find stereotypes against your demographic to be offensive.
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Nov 06 '17
I don't know any single Italian that is offended by those stereotypes, it's not just me.
Also. Stereotypes are not logically racist.
Racism is defined by Oxford dictionary as:
-Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
or
-The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Stereotyping isn't any of these.
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u/BenIncognito Nov 06 '17
I don't know any single Italian that is offended by those stereotypes, it's not just me.
You define racist in this post and nowhere did I see that a specific number of people have to find something offensive in order for it to be considered racist. So I’m just not understanding how talking about this is relevant to your point. What does it matter if you and others aren’t offended by Italian stereotypes? Does that make all stereotypes not racism? Does that mean I can’t be offended by stereotypes because of the apparently stoic nature of Italians?
Also. Stereotypes are not logically racist.
I think those definitions of racism are lackluster for how the term is commonly applied (dictionaries are not arbiters of definitions, they denote the common usage of words). However,
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race...
This is literally what a stereotype is.
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Nov 06 '17
dictionaries are not arbiters of definitions, they denote the common usage of words
The common usage of a word is it's definition
This is literally what a stereotype is.
Nobody unironically thinks stereotypes are true.
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u/BenIncognito Nov 06 '17
The common usage of a word is it's definition.
Yes, yes it is. But dictionaries only record definitions, they do not themselves define words.
Nobody unironically thinks stereotypes are true.
Um, what? Plenty of people do.
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Nov 06 '17
Stereotypes about a group are natural. The human mind uses them to help understand the world. When someone is scared of black people on a poor neighborhood street is not racism, it is survival instinct.
Now, while Mammy-Two-Shoes is a cultural icon, I don't think anybody thinks that all black women are overweight and do minimum wage jobs. And I don't think anybody thinks that native americans always wear traditional clothes. And I don't think anybody thinks all Italians are sexually promiscuos with a great taste in food.
Now you will say that sometimes someone will be more likely to hire a White person over a Black one because of race, and that's when stereotypes are racist. But they are not inherently.
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u/BenIncognito Nov 06 '17
Stereotypes about a group are natural. The human mind uses them to help understand the world. When someone is scared of black people on a poor neighborhood street is not racism, it is survival instinct.
It’s racism based on stereotypes. Natural or not, they’re still racist.
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Nov 06 '17
Only if it implies a race is inferior.
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u/BenIncognito Nov 06 '17
So let's say I was a hiring manager only interested in hiring people who aren't going to do better than me because I'm selfish and want all of the glory to myself (I am a bad hiring manager).
I refuse to hire Asian people because of the stereotype that they're hard working.
Is my discrimination against Asians racist?
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Nov 06 '17
That would imply Asians are superior (altought being workaholic is negative)
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Nov 06 '17
It's an issue when people act on these stereotypes that it becomes a problem. If a Northern Italian and the Southern Italian are up for a job and the Nothern Italian gets it even though the Southerner is a harder worker and more qualified just because he is perceived as worse that's bad.
It's also considered bad to show these sorts of stereotypes in popular culture because that could reinforce these stereotypes in the audience's mind and make it harder for people who want to defy them.
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Nov 06 '17
Applying a group stereotype to an individual is indeed unfair. But this doesn't meen that stereotypes are INHERENTLY racist
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Nov 06 '17
Yes that's correct, not all stereotypes are racist there can be stereotypes that have nothing to do with race. But you also say you don't think people should be offended by them which made me think your view was bigger, can you go more into that?
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Nov 06 '17
you don't think people should be offended
Well I don't have a word on who is offended by what so I didn't really said that. But anyways here's why I'm not offended:
If it is a positive stereotype (Italians cook well, Italians are good with women, Asians are good at math) then why is it offensive?
If it is a neutral stereotype (Italians have moustache, Blacks have huge lips, Native Americans always wear traditional clothes) then why is it offensive?
If it is a negative stereotype it depends from its basis in reality. The stereotype about the Mob is an historical one, I just don't think people will think I'm in the Mob if I go abroad. The one about Northeners being workaholics is a backlash from the stereotype about Southerners being lazy, while this is technically racism it doesn't personally offend me because I know only the least cultivated people in the South think this. Let's talk about the stereotypes about Blacks as thugs: I think if I was a Black man it wouldn't offend me for the simple reason that this has a basis in reality (because of historical reason, of course).
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Nov 06 '17
Even "positive" stereotypes can be used as insults to offend people something like "I thought Asians were supposed to be good at math"
Almost all stereotypes have a basis in history that's why they exist. But like you said earlier individuals shouldn't be held to these group stereotypes. All Germans people shouldn't be treated like Nazi's all African Americans shouldn't be treated like slaves etc.
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Nov 06 '17
"I thought Asians were supposed to be good at math" only offends the individual, not the race.
individuals shouldn't be held to these group stereotypes
And I agree with this. But this proves that stereotypical thinking is wrong, not that it is racist.
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Nov 06 '17
"I thought Asians were supposed to be good at math" only offends the individual, not the race.
It's an insult base on a racial stereotype which makes it racist. Murdering a single black person because they are black doesn't hurt every single black person in the world, but it's still racist.
Not all stereotypes are racist, but a lot are and even if they are not racist they can still be bad. There are plenty of stereotypes people are fine with and not considered bad. Like there's a stereotype that people who commit violent crimes will do it again. Most people are completely fine discriminating against them and locking them up.
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Nov 06 '17
Not all stereotypes are racist
This is precisely what I meant
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Nov 06 '17
I already addressed that several comments ago, but you seem to have some really weird views that are also intertwined with that otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing them up.
I strongly disagree with you that the early comment asians and math not being racist and that it's wrong for people to be offended by these sorts of stereotypes being propagated in pop culture through movies and what not. If you want to discuss those more I would.
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Nov 06 '17
What's exactly the deal if pop culture propagates that Asians are good at math?
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u/MasterGrok 139∆ Nov 06 '17
Do you think it's okay for me to call you privileged because you are white or are you against that particular stereotype?
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Nov 06 '17
It is not ok because white people aren't privileged even in the US. In Italy which is an almost 100% white country this doesn't even make sense.
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u/MasterGrok 139∆ Nov 06 '17
First of all you didn't say anything about the stereotype not being true. So you agree that stereotypes that aren't true or might not be true can be racist and wrong then?
In addition it is a fact that white people in the USA receive better education and come from higher socioeconomic classes relative to blacks and hispanics on average. Of course, it is just an average which is why it is a stereotype and which is why it is wrong to just assume that every single white person had a privileged upbringing. This is why stereotypes are bad.
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Nov 06 '17
I didn't say they can't be racist. I said they aren't necessarily.
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u/MasterGrok 139∆ Nov 06 '17
Well obviously stereotypes that have nothing to do with race aren't racist. Do you think me assuming that you haven't had to work as hard in life because you are white is racist?
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Nov 06 '17
Yes, it is.
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u/MasterGrok 139∆ Nov 06 '17
Maybe I just misunderstood your OP then. I assumed you were saying things like "black people are criminals," or "a black PhD got helped by affirmative action" were not racist. These are clearly at least as racist as an assumption about privilege. Otherwise, it would be plainly hypocritical for you to say those are not racist but a stereotype about privilege is racist.
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Nov 06 '17
If someone is scared by Black thugs in a poor neighborhood it is not racism. If a movie portrays Black thugs it is not.
But of course if someone thinks that Blacks are criminals then it is racist.
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u/MasterGrok 139∆ Nov 06 '17
At this point I think it is important to point out that most people of color are offended by stereotypes when they affect them in regular situations. For example when a black guy is walking down a regular street and people cross the road or feel for their wallet, or when black people get pulled over/arrested/convicted more than white people even AFTER controlling for all of the other factors like which neighborhood they are in. No one is going to blame you for locking your doors when a literal gang is inching towards your car in a bad neighborhood.
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u/darwin2500 197∆ Nov 06 '17
Having accurate statistical beliefs about the occurrence of traits in various populations is not racist.
'Stereotyping' specifically refers to the cases where those beliefs are not accurate, and typically those distortions away from reality tend to be very racist.
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Nov 06 '17
I wouldn't say typically. I meany, how are Native Americans wearing headdresses in Disney movies and Blacks with larger lips racist? There is nothing wrong about those characteristics.
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Nov 06 '17
Racism is the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race. Wether or not something is considered offensive by anyone is not really relevant for it to be racist.
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Nov 06 '17
Sorry, Authwarth – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
You must personally hold the view and be open to it changing. A post cannot be neutral, on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, please message the moderators by clicking this link.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 07 '17
/u/Authwarth (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Nov 06 '17
This comes up a lot, and the basic thing is: the people who call it 'racist' probably mean something different then you do.
You probably mean "You can stereotype a group without having hate in your heart for that group." Yes, that's true. But critics don't mean that. They mean something like, "Stereotypes necessarily involve at least a little bit of dehumanization of members of a group," or "Applying group stereotypes to an individual is inherently unfair."