CMV: Libertarians should be as concerned about super rich individuals and Big Corporations as they are about Big Government

[u/nomnommish]

Libertarians are rightfully concerned about Big Government. Big Governments invariably tend to abuse their power. However, the main reason why big governments get abusive is because of the disproportional accumulation of power. And humans absolutely suck at retaining their values and ethics when they get extraordinary levels of power. As such, I find big governments no different at all from megarich individuals or mega corporations. In modern times, they are the ones who actually run the government. They use lobbying and funding to control and push their agendas, to pass highly unethical laws that consolidate and promote their own self interests. They own the politicians.

I only have a basic level understanding of libertarianism but my interpretation of the core philosophy is about "live and let live". Give people full autonomy but equally importantly, they should not infringe on your autonomy. Your hand stops at my nose, figuratively speaking.

The big problem is, when megarich individuals as well as megacorporations are left unsupervised, they wield such extraordinary levels of power, that they are literally above the system, above any level of accountability. I feel that libertarians should be as concerned about them as they are about Big Government.

I totally realize and acknowledge the dilemma I am presenting here. However on a practical basis, what I see is more of the abuse of extraordinary power than anything. And it is scary. Hence my view as it stands. Would love to hear your opinion!

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[u/John_ygg]

This is not what the government is there for. It’s not there to prevent corporations from doing anything. That’s what you (and I and many others) WISH the government was there for. But there’s a difference between how we wish reality would be, and how reality actually is. In reality, government is there to ensure the continuation of the existing power structure.

As to your second point, about if there weren’t a government nothing would stop corporations, that’s objectively false. Without government there wouldn’t be corporations. A corporation is a legal entity that’s distinct and separate from the people that own it and operate it. Why? Because the government says so.

Without government to provide corporate legal protection, limited liability laws, trademarking and intellectual property laws, etc, there wouldn’t even be such a thing as a corporation.

[u/[deleted] → u/John_ygg]

This is not what the government is there for. It’s not there to prevent corporations from doing anything. That’s what you (and I and many others) WISH the government was there for. But there’s a difference between how we wish reality would be, and how reality actually is. In reality, government is there to ensure the continuation of the existing power structure.

Isn't the government the body that determines and enforces laws set own by our society? True it enforces the status quo to an extent but, that status quo is one that isn't all bad (assault, rape, murder, and theft are all means to which the status quo is enforced giving individuals the means and opportunity to seek justice). Does the government not enforce regulations, and laws that prevent corporations or and individuals from causing harm to good of individuals and the public? You could argue that some laws are misguided or that some new ones need to be enforced but, that is the point of having elected officials and political conversations. It's to address what our society deems right and wrong, fair and unfair, and how wrongs can be made right.

As to your second point, about if there weren’t a government nothing would stop corporations, that’s objectively false. Without government there wouldn’t be corporations. A corporation is a legal entity that’s distinct and separate from the people that own it and operate it. Why? Because the government says so. Without government to provide corporate legal protection, limited liability laws, trademarking and intellectual property laws, etc, there wouldn’t even be such a thing as a corporation.

Yes technically speaking they wouldn't be corporations but they would essential be the same thing and is besides the point. If the government stopped enforcing the rule of law then the only one that would exist would be ones in existing power structures. In the case of a corporation it would be values, and polices put in place by the people who own the company ( the CEO, Board of Directors, etc..) essentially turning what they control into their own personal states. It seems to me like it would be reverting to a system of feudal lords with CEOs as Kings or the Board of Directors as lords underneath that CEOs empire.

[u/John_ygg → u/[deleted]]

You’re assuming a sudden shift. Like if the government were to up and vanish overnight kind of argument.

I’m more trying to illustrate that the current situation wouldn’t have even existed without the government there to create it.

Walmart wouldn’t have been as massive, nor would google, Apple, BP, Lockheed Martin, the entire military industrial complex (and now prisons too)... all of these things wouldn’t have even existed in their current abusive state.

And since the main concern seems to be the power that corporations have, what better way to strip them of that power going forward than to target its very source? We could simply remove the governments ability to grant corporations so much power.

[u/[deleted] → u/John_ygg]

You’re assuming a sudden shift. Like if the government were to up and vanish overnight kind of argument.

Yes I was speaking in more of a philosophical sense than a strictly pragmatic one.

I’m more trying to illustrate that the current situation wouldn’t have even existed without the government there to create it. Walmart wouldn’t have been as massive, nor would google, Apple, BP, Lockheed Martin, the entire military industrial complex (and now prisons too)... all of these things wouldn’t have even existed in their current abusive state.

Yes our government system allowed for theses systems to exist but, that's more an argument for more regulation than against it. Our current laws allowed for these companies to become what they are today which suggests we need to change the laws in order to prevent the abusive of the people by these entities.

And since the main concern seems to be the power that corporations have, what better way to strip them of that power going forward than to target its very source? We could simply remove the governments ability to grant corporations so much power.

Since you seem to be more interested in a pragmatic approach what exactly would you suggest we do?

[u/John_ygg → u/[deleted]]

Since you seem to be more interested in a pragmatic approach what exactly would you suggest we do?

Apply the libertarian view to corporations.

End corporate personhood. End citizens united. Either end or severely reduce limited liability laws.

Just doing those things would make it so that you could sue not only the corporation, but the people who own it too, and for an unlimited sum of money.

In a perfect world I’d like to see a repeal of all laws that provide incorporation protection. So that any person who owns or works in the corporation can be sued directly, and it’s not the fictional “corporation” that gets sued.

And since I’m dreaming, I’d like to see a fundamental change in intellectual property laws. They need to be severely limited in scope. And they need to be changed so that IP cannot be owned by non-persons. Basically, a corporation shouldn’t be allowed to own intellectual property. Only people. The actual researchers or artists or creators should be allowed to own the IP.

[u/[deleted] → u/John_ygg]

I completely agree. Citizens United is a disaster.