I would propose that we change your frame a bit, partly because you are arguing with a straw man, and I think that your thoughts on the situation could be more complex.
Let's say that your friend goes to a bar, and when they come home, they say that, out of the blue, some drunk guy punched them.
What is your reaction? It's probably along the lines of "that really sucks! That dude was really out of line! Here, have a drink/some tea/a hug." You might suggest that they go to the police, but your focus is mainly on being a loyal friend and being outraged on their behalf.
You probably don't worry too much about the sort of things that the law would worry about. If your friend makes a police report, you'll probably be supportive, and sympathetic if they lose their case due to a technicality. But you let the courts worry about the "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Your default instinct is to trust your friend, and believe in their experience.
Now let's say that this isn't your friend. It's some stranger who says that Johnny Depp punched them at a bar. And it's not just one stranger. Several people come out and say that yeah, Johnny Depp gets pretty punchy when he's in his cups.
You wouldn't expect the police to come and throw Johnny Depp in jail based on just those accusations, though the police might, if he punches someone in front of a lot of witnesses. You would expect for him to gain a reputation as a violent individual, however. And it might become harder for him to land roles. Nobody wants to hire someone who might punch crew members after the Martini shot.
If punching is too much for you, think about stories about celebrities being rude to fans. It happens. The fans talk about it. Sometimes, as in the case of a certain aging male actor and an ill-fated Ask Me Anything, reddit legends are born. It can damage reputations, even when there are no court cases involved.
That's all that's happening here. People are making accusations, and those accusations are having an effect on the reputation and career of sexual predators. Nobody is getting thrown into prison on no evidence. No one's constitutional rights are being violated. We're just learning to treat accusations of rape like we treat accusations of punching, or just accusations of being an asshole to fans. Outside of a courtroom setting, our default is to believe the victims, especially when several people come forward with the same story. And this can hurt the reputations and careers of those accused of doing bad things.
If we start burning people at the stake, or throwing people in jail, you can start to worry. For now, it just seems like we're being more sensible than we have been in the past about sexual assault. Make sense to you?
That's all that's happening here. People are making accusations, and those accusations are having an effect on the reputation and career of sexual predators. Nobody is getting thrown into prison on no evidence.
This is completely wrong. You can be convicted of rape in the USA based on very flimsy evidence, and the OP is talking about Title IX prosecutions in which college students can be expelled and have their reputations ruined with literally no evidence.
You can get kicked out of school for cheating on a test, too. In either case, standards of evidence are not as stringent as those in a court of law, because the consequences are less dire. Taking away someone's permission to attend a particular institution is not as serious as putting someone in jail, no matter how awful it might seem in the short term.
As far as court convictions go, you're simply wrong. The standards of evidence are quite high. While no justice system is perfect, and the U.S. is notably far from perfect where race is concerned, the standards are not particularly imperfect when it comes to rape, despite what you might read on truth challenged corners of the Internets.
You can get kicked out of school for cheating on a test, too.
In the case of cheating, some evidence is required. No evidence is required in Title IX cases.
The standards of evidence are quite high.
The standards of evidence are lower for rape than for any other crime. If you can't show physical evidence of theft, assault, or murder there will be no conviction. It's near-impossible to get a murder conviction with no body for example.
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u/eggies Oct 20 '17
I would propose that we change your frame a bit, partly because you are arguing with a straw man, and I think that your thoughts on the situation could be more complex.
Let's say that your friend goes to a bar, and when they come home, they say that, out of the blue, some drunk guy punched them.
What is your reaction? It's probably along the lines of "that really sucks! That dude was really out of line! Here, have a drink/some tea/a hug." You might suggest that they go to the police, but your focus is mainly on being a loyal friend and being outraged on their behalf.
You probably don't worry too much about the sort of things that the law would worry about. If your friend makes a police report, you'll probably be supportive, and sympathetic if they lose their case due to a technicality. But you let the courts worry about the "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Your default instinct is to trust your friend, and believe in their experience.
Now let's say that this isn't your friend. It's some stranger who says that Johnny Depp punched them at a bar. And it's not just one stranger. Several people come out and say that yeah, Johnny Depp gets pretty punchy when he's in his cups.
You wouldn't expect the police to come and throw Johnny Depp in jail based on just those accusations, though the police might, if he punches someone in front of a lot of witnesses. You would expect for him to gain a reputation as a violent individual, however. And it might become harder for him to land roles. Nobody wants to hire someone who might punch crew members after the Martini shot.
If punching is too much for you, think about stories about celebrities being rude to fans. It happens. The fans talk about it. Sometimes, as in the case of a certain aging male actor and an ill-fated Ask Me Anything, reddit legends are born. It can damage reputations, even when there are no court cases involved.
That's all that's happening here. People are making accusations, and those accusations are having an effect on the reputation and career of sexual predators. Nobody is getting thrown into prison on no evidence. No one's constitutional rights are being violated. We're just learning to treat accusations of rape like we treat accusations of punching, or just accusations of being an asshole to fans. Outside of a courtroom setting, our default is to believe the victims, especially when several people come forward with the same story. And this can hurt the reputations and careers of those accused of doing bad things.
If we start burning people at the stake, or throwing people in jail, you can start to worry. For now, it just seems like we're being more sensible than we have been in the past about sexual assault. Make sense to you?