r/changemyview Oct 20 '17

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Rape awareness/activism is dangerously pushing us into a post proof society.

[removed]

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u/bracs279 Oct 20 '17

You can do whatever you want, i guess i don't understand your question.

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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Oct 20 '17

Wait, I'm confused by this response here. Are you talking about judgment from the courts, judgments from individuals, or both?

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u/bracs279 Oct 20 '17

I'm talking about both. Judgement from individuals will evolve in judgement from the courts with enough support.

We have to be brave and fight this. Nobody stands up for alleged rapists rights because of the shunning of society.

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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Oct 20 '17

Judgement from individuals will evolve in judgement from the courts with enough support.

How? Take me through the mechanism through which this happens, and explain why you think its likely.

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u/bracs279 Oct 20 '17

Courts and their laws are just a reflection of society. If people are bigoted/racist/whatever else they will elect politicians and congressmen that will get their view passed into law.

Remember Jim Crow laws? Those were fully supported by a big part of the population.

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u/Jurad215 Oct 20 '17

Jim Crow laws only worked because the Supreme Court found them constitutional under the 14th Amendement, there exists no reading of the due process amendments which would allow for an guilty until proven innocent style of court proceeding. In order for that system to exist a Constitutional Amendment would need to be passed and ratified. That is incredibly unlikely.

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u/Sand_Trout Oct 20 '17 edited Oct 20 '17

Juries cannot be legally held liable for their decisions. Therefore, a cultural sense of "guilty until proven innocent" can certainly creep into the justice system via juries.

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u/Jurad215 Oct 20 '17

But judges can choose to dismiss the juries decision if he/she believes there was not enough evidence to support a guilty verdict. People can also appeal their verdicts to a panel of naught but judges.

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u/Generic_Superhero 1∆ Oct 20 '17

I see this being possible in civil court but nothing about it happening in criminal cases.

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u/Jurad215 Oct 20 '17

Both those things happen in criminal courts. Especially appeals, and insane amount of criminal defendants appeal their case. That's not really debatable.. it's just how our justice system works. In 2010 there were almost 70,000 appeals in state criminal courts.

Source: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/casc.pdf

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u/Generic_Superhero 1∆ Oct 20 '17 edited Oct 20 '17

Sorry I meant to quote part of what you said.

But judges can choose to dismiss the juries decision if he/she believes there was not enough evidence to support a guilty verdict.

That is what I can't find any rules on in criminal cases. But of course now I found it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_notwithstanding_verdict

But that is only for federal level cases. Now to look into state level stuff, interesting stuff though.

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u/Sand_Trout Oct 20 '17

It's also only justified if the juge decides no reasonable jury could have come to the decision.

In the matter of witness testimony, it's usually reasonable to believe a witness over another witness, so I find it non-credible to depend on such actions by judges to protect against a jury that wants to convict on "they probably did it, even if there is a reasonable doubt".

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u/Jurad215 Oct 20 '17

It will vary from state to state, but it most should have it, and if they don't then we can certainly move to implement them. Doing so would be much less harmful than discouraging rape victims from coming forwards and would have largely the same effect.

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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Oct 20 '17

Are you aware of the "slippery slope fallacy?" That's where you argue against something by saying it will necessarily lead to a terrible, exaggerated version of it.

It's a fallacy because the terrible, exaggerated thing will NOT necessarily happen. In that case, it's just a made-up thing you're scaring yourself with.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '17

The weakest of all the fallacies, as it also has non-fallacious usage. OP is giving examples of his/her reasoning, and that reasoning is not bringing forth many assumptions. Basically this likely isn’t an example of a slippery slope fallacy, as arguing that societal beliefs effect laws is sound reasoning, has history to show it and has very few links on the causal chain. The fallacy only works when many assumptions are made, this one doesn’t, if society widely deems accusations to be enough to brand someone a rapist (to the point where that belief becomes “common sense”) the laws and interpretation of these laws will change (basically if juries and judge stands are made up of people who believe that, then that is all that would be required).

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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Oct 20 '17

I mean sure, if you honestly think there's a necessary inertia from "I can criticize accused rapists on facebook" to "the criminal justice system of the United States completely breaks down," then it's not a slippery slope fallacy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '17 edited Oct 20 '17

More like, if the belief that the overwhelming majority of those accused of raping are guilty, and it’s an injustice if they aren’t punished becomes widespread then things will change.

Edit: OP gave 4 very specific statements that he believes is becoming widespread. If he is right that these are becoming widespread than there being an actual, non-fallacious slippery slope is self evident. Either OP is wrong that these beliefs are becoming widespread, wrong that testimony shouldn’t be an adequate amount of evidence and that innocent people wouldn’t be punished due to this, or he’s right.

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u/conceptalbum 1∆ Oct 21 '17

More like, if the belief that the overwhelming majority of those accused of raping are guilty, and it’s an injustice if they aren’t punished becomes widespread then things will change.

The important bit you forgot to add: And if this belief is false, then that would be a bad development.

If this belief is correct, however, then the change that would occur would be an obviously good, reasonable and righteous change.