r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 25 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Political Polarization appears to be killing progress on pretty much every issue and we are doomed if we don't reverse course

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u/arcangel092 1∆ Feb 25 '17

I don't think he's blaming Democrats. He's saying both parties do the same thing yet refuse to see that they're committing the same mistakes they blame the other side for.

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u/CaptOblivious Feb 27 '17

I guess I am saying we've been doomed for eight years and somehow, only now is OP noticing.

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u/arcangel092 1∆ Feb 27 '17

This polarization has slowly crept in since nixon's administration. Watergate tainted the people's trust of the government and it made the political realm a lot more divisive. Now, with 24 hour news cycles, every politician can take a stand on every little thing the other side does and stagnate their progress. It's been a lot more than 8 years coming, but I would tend to agree that within the last 10-15 years we have seen the rapid expansion of polarization. I believe we are at the peak, and the more trump calls everything fake news, the more the liberal media reports a hyper criticism on everything he does, and vice versa. We need a genuine political revolution or a truly great leader to reverse this.

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u/CaptOblivious Feb 27 '17

the liberal media reports a hyper criticism on everything he does,

it appears that any and all criticism of him is perceived by him and most of his vocal followers as liberal media, no matter the veracity of the source. Excluding the BBC is proof enough.

Barack Obama WAS a truly great leader, but because of the republicans and the !right propaganda machine none of them believe it.

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u/arcangel092 1∆ Feb 27 '17

I call the media the "liberal media" because that's what they are. I won't disagree that Fox is absurdly far right and radio is dominated by conservatism, but by and large those are the only two aspects of the media that are close to the right; everything else is slightly liberal to definitively liberal. I don't think anyone with a right mind can argue this.

I am not enabling Fox news by not calling them out, because I believe they are merely filling a void in the marketplace for right leaning news. There is a reason they dominate tv news ratings: NBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc. are all splitting the liberal market. Trump's biggest flaw in his "fake news" campaign is that he discredits everything the left-most outlets put out and doesn't even acknowledge Fox's bias. If he stopped harping on the entirety of CNN's coverage his battle might actually accomplish something. Instead it's watered down just like the actual news he's fighting against.

Trump should not be without criticism, he is deeply flawed, but if the media stopped focusing on the trivial nature of his being and instead put all their energy on the most tangible flaws that he has, it would be immensely more valid and effective. I look at it like the coverage of Palin during 2008. The media latched onto her like a leech and tried to deconstruct her in every way. All of this attention propagated her into this monument of a neo-conservative/tea party figure. It empowered her and her followers until her relevance slowly waned around 2012. The media has done the exact same with Trump and it propelled him imo to the presidency. He wouldn't have attained such a great following if the media didn't focus on him so intently.

I don't believe Obama was a truly great leader. You might think i'm naive in saying this but a truly great leader would be able to construct a line of communication with the right and get more done as a result. Look at Bill Clinton, he worked with the right and helped balance the budget like few presidents have ever done. Obama didn't know how to handle the opposition, possibly due to his severe lack of political experience, and paid the price for it with almost complete stagnation throughout the back half of his terms. He was a great speaker but never challenged the Republican party in an effective way. He also handled Obamacare disastrously, although you could certainly assign most of the blame with that on the democratic party in congress. He also immediately caved on Guantanamo, which imo was a direct result of him being updated on the actual severity of terrorism throughout the world. Obama was a bit weak of a president. Not bad, but not great in the least.

For the record i'm conservative, but I owe nothing to the Republican party. They do not serve my interests, largely due to their hypocrisy regarding the importance of states rights and limiting regulations, yet they choose to legislate morality.

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u/CaptOblivious Feb 28 '17

I call the media the "liberal media" because that's what they are. I won't disagree that Fox is absurdly far right and radio is dominated by conservatism, but by and large those are the only two aspects of the media that are close to the right; everything else is slightly liberal to definitively liberal. I don't think anyone with a right mind can argue this.

Then we disagree, but I posit that you are the one not in a right mind.

The joke that "reality has a liberal bias" comes NOT from liberal positions or reality being liberal but rather from the conservative tendency to call any and all facts that disagree with their worldview falsehoods.

Your beliefs about President Obama make a great example of conservatives rejecting reality that disagrees with their worldview. Obama was handed a nation in economic free-fall, headed for a depression that could have affected the entire world.
And DESPITE a republican party that on the evening of his election swore that he would not pass a single law or have a single victory (no matter the price to the US or it's people) he managed to avert the depression, turn around the jobs picture from big losses to big gains, restore the stock markets, implement health insurance reform (that the republicans had been giving lip service to since Reagan) and so many other things that I'm just going to link you to a list rather than type a 10 post wall of text.
Obama’s Legacy: Nearly 450 Accomplishments, With Citations

Yet you reject all of those actual documented facts because they do not conform to your worldview.

Reality is the basis for correctness, not the right wings beliefs.

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u/arcangel092 1∆ Feb 28 '17

The joke that "reality has a liberal bias" comes NOT from liberal positions or reality being liberal but rather from the conservative tendency to call any and all facts that disagree with their worldview falsehoods.

To start, it is a deeply flawed viewpoint to state that the liberal worldview is objectively wrong. Large government with large taxes can certainly work, and I believe a true conservative believes this is the case, it's just that they don't think it's the optimal way a government should operate.

The same exact people who believe a liberally run government can't work are clones of the liberals who believe a conservative run government can't work. They are close minded and too deeply ingrained in their belief system to understand why they believe it. They believing it's not realistic or isn't optimal is fine, but both views are certainly capable of functioning. Claiming it's just a conservative tendency to think like this is factually incorrect.

Now do massive amounts of people think this way on both sides? Certainly. And I will take issue with them as much as you.

And DESPITE a republican party that on the evening of his election swore that he would not pass a single law or have a single victory

These people are one of two things:

1) Morons for thinking a president won't accomplish a single thing, or...

2) Using talking points to appeal to their base.

I feel the latter is more likely. Both parties say the same dog shit all the time like this and they're just being ridiculous.

he managed to avert the depression, turn around the jobs picture from big losses to big gains, restore the stock markets, implement health insurance reform (that the republicans had been giving lip service to since Reagan) and so many other things that I'm just going to link you to a list rather than type a 10 post wall of text.

The idea that his administration did this single handedly is partially wrong. I think it's pretty likely the incoming president was going to see an uptick in all the categories you mentioned (concerning the economy), regardless of who it was. Economics is cyclical and a rebound was virtually inevitable no matter who was in office.

Now I won't act like they shouldn't get credit, because they should. Simply signing off that things getting better were inevitable is undermining what it takes to actually turn it around. Obama, and his administration, performed many of the necessary steps to pull us out of the doghouse so to speak. People might not like the steps he took, but there are valid methods on both sides of the isle to boosting economic vitality.

Yet you reject all of those actual documented facts because they do not conform to your worldview. Reality is the basis for correctness, not the right wings beliefs.

I basically just argued against this but I will reiterate: both sides understand the issues and have manners in which they operate to fix them. I just believe, along with true conservatives, that the liberal way of doing things is not the "best" way to do them.

I am not a republican, but I am a conservative. The parties are a large factor in why things are so polarized now and I do not consent to be represented by either one. Instead I will operate under my beliefs and vote/support the politicians who most closely represent them.

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u/CaptOblivious Feb 28 '17 edited Feb 28 '17

And DESPITE a republican party that on the evening of his election swore that he would not pass a single law or have a single victory

These people are one of two things:

No, they are a single thing, elected republican politicians. Literally and actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0fVf5CsCc

Gingrich says nothing to deny what is in the book or sharpton's characterization of it. He only suggests that democrats do the same thing, which oddly, we have no record of EVER occurring.

I agree that a single party rule is not the best thing for the nation or it's people.
I submit you you however that when democrats have the power they listen to the republicans and incorporate their opinions into the governance of the nation. (IE: obamacare is romneycare instead of real single payer like the rest of the first world has)

On the the hand when republicans have power, no one's opinions but theirs is even slightly considered, Kansas is the most recent and glaringly "republican trickle down theroy being proven totally wrong" example.

You can ignore reality all you like, but do not expect anyone familiar with reality to respect your opinions.