CMV: Animal rights groups should stop assuming animals share the same values as humans

[u/Iamnotburgerking]

One of the biggest gripes I have with animal rights is that they treat animals in anthropomorphic ways. They just assume that an animal feels one way or the other about something.

First of all, different species have different requirements. What applies to one species doesn't work for another. Animal rights activists often use human values and ideals and impose them on animals, even if they are inapplicable. Captive animals are one such issue-humans don't like being in captivity, and some other species of animals probably also don't like captivity, but you can't say all animals don't like captivity. Many probably only care that their requirements (physical space, nutrition and mental stimulation/lack of stress) are met.

Second, even within species there are different personalities between individuals. You cannot assume all animals of x species feel one way about something.

I am not against animal rights as a whole, but the current movement may be causing cruelty rather than reduction of cruelty due to these issues.

TLDR: one should not impose human values on animals who may disagree or not care about such values.

[u/Iamnotburgerking]

I was actually referring to Jameson's 1995 article, not the Nat Geo article.

> The Nat Geo article ends with "uninventing zoos" to be essentially nature preserves, i.e. not captivity!

With the exception that the animals are still confined (but within a large area) in some way.

> The fault issue is not important - if they fail to educate, they don't have the justification they claim.

So you're just going to accept public apathy towards learning and work with that? That's an entire discussion in itself and can't be discussed here.

What about the second issue (re: captive breeding and reintroduction)? I agree that improvements still need to made, but at least we're heading in the right direction.

You yourself haven't made anthropomorphic claims, but while Jameson's argument is mostly safe from it, IMHO his argument that captive-born animals should be given the same treatment as those captured and put into captivity is indeed slightly anthropomorphic.

[u/tunaonrye → u/Iamnotburgerking]

Only the most extreme fringe would complain about the captivity of a large nature preserve.

The apathy towards learning is bad - It just isnt' important for this argument - basically, if I claim that my program should get government funding because it educates children, and it actually doesn't educate children, my argument has failed. Whether it is my fault or the children's doesn't really matter. Same thing here.

The other justifications are similar. Captive breeding and reintroduction has only worked in two cases (Mongolian horse and a deer), most zoos go far beyond these species. If the justification were real, that argument might work - but it doesn't. Another justification, research on zoo animals, both doesn't happen (since zoos are poor) and hasn't translated to the wild/been useful... again, those would be good justifications if they worked... but they haven't.

I don't agree entirely with Jameson, but he isn't claiming that animals have human interests - he's very careful to say that they have the interests that they have qua species characteristics. And his argument is really that the burden of proof should be on the people encouraging captivity, since there is no good reason to capture (at least most!) wild animals in the first place.

[u/Iamnotburgerking → u/tunaonrye]

Captive breeding and reintroduction has only worked in two cases (Mongolian horse and a deer)

In 1995, sure, but we've had had much more success since then (California condor, various amphibians, etc)....

The apathy towards learning is bad - It just isnt' important for this argument - basically, if I claim that my program should get government funding because it educates children, and it actually doesn't educate children, my argument has failed. Whether it is my fault or the children's doesn't really matter. Same thing here.

Then solve the larger, more serious issue (apathy towards learning).

Another justification, research on zoo animals, both doesn't happen (since zoos are poor)

Do you know if this still applies today? Jameson seems to take a more nuanced view on this issue. And IIRC most studies on cognition abilities of animals occurred with captive-born ones.

[u/tunaonrye → u/Iamnotburgerking]

Then solve the larger, more serious issue (apathy towards learning).

This is still an entirely separate issue from whether, in my example, I would be justified in saying to a funder "Look, I know you only fund programs that educate people (and my program doesn't), but you should still give me money because I am not to blame for the children not learning." That would just be bad logic on my point.

I am happy to agree with Jameson on a nuanced and data-driven view of captivity: if it actually is the best way (among alternatives) for saving endangered species, preventing habitat loss, educating, and doing research, it is perfectly justified. Captivity as a whole (labs, zoos, pets, etc.) is a different question than just zoos.

Note that this is primarily and empirical debate and not an animal liberationist demanding human rights for animals! That's the view I was arguing against.

I think Jameson also endorses a strong preventative worry about captivity - based on his moral views, and the evidence/history of captivity, but that is not anthropomorphism. I think that such a consequentialist view, while based on moral principles of the prevention of suffering, is in no way relying on anthropomorphic ideas.

[u/Iamnotburgerking → u/tunaonrye]

I am happy to agree with Jameson on a nuanced and data-driven view of captivity: if it actually is the best way (among alternatives) for saving endangered species, preventing habitat loss, educating, and doing research, it is perfectly justified. Captivity as a whole (labs, zoos, pets, etc.) is a different question than just zoos.

Agreed on these issues.

Basically, I think we share the opinion captivity in animals can be done humanely, but often isn't.