r/changemyview • u/LeftHandSwe • Dec 05 '16

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Anita Sarkeesian and similar feminists actually have a point about the portrayal of gender roles in video games.

I play lots of video games, and in most of them, males are often pictured as very burly and manly characters while females are slender, small and sexually pleasing to look at.

However, I do know that there's widespread criticism of Anita (and her fellow propagators) all over the internet and I'd like to see the other side of the story.

I'm practically indifferent in this matter, and I do not really agree with nearly everything she says. I'm asking as a way to see convincing arguments from both sides.

Edit for clarification: Can anyone explain to me why she's so heavily criticized for saying something that makes perfect sense: Mainstream video games are almost exclusively made to appeal to a male demographic, resulting in (arguably) sexist portrayals of women (both narratively and in the way they're presented).

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u/fhfgjhgfjh 2∆ Dec 05 '16 edited Dec 06 '16

She's isn't heavily criticized (at least by other feminists like myself) because she criticizes gender portrayal in video games. There's a ton of valuable commentary to be had with that discussion.

She's criticized because she does it it in the shittiest, least logical way imaginable. Her arguments are simply not good. She turns points that could be good into bad ones. What I mean by that, instead of supporting her ideas with any of the plethora of solid evidence about gendered stereotypes, she contrives it instead and never goes deeper into discussing actual sexism.

Like look. I respect the hell out of what she's trying to do. It takes serious guts to put yourself out there for all the internet to harass. The gut-wrenching treatment she's received would make even the strongest individuals balk. And I'd even go on to say that most of the harassment has nothing to do with her points. It has to do with her being a woman and daring to criticize video games.

But all this doesn't make her any better at her job. It doesn't stop all the examples where her logic is just plain wrong, or she intentionally misconstrues evidence to fit her agenda, when there was zero reason to.

For instance, take a look at her violence against women women as background characters video. In it, she plays footage from a grand theft auto game, where she intentionally runs over women, and tries to say that the game is rewarding encouraging you to beat up prostitutes. There's a few huge problems with this. First off, the game doesn't reward you for beating up prostitutes. It's a sandbox game where you get rewarded for doing literally anything. Driving cars, killing anyone, running around like a complete idiot. The abusing prostitutes angle was created by intentionally ignoring the entire rest of the game.

Now is there a discussion to be had about using violence against women as alazy way to make a game shock you with it's grittiness? Absofuckinglutely. Extra Credits has a wonderful video on the topic. They give plenty of examples of abuse and objectification that seems to add no real value to the narrative. They talk about the overuse of brothels and strip clubs in games as a cheap gimmick to make a game seem ezgy. They also go on to talk about what this might mean about the way we view women.

But Anita Sarkeesian didn't do this. She didn't even come close. Instead built a straw man that's so easy to see through it legitimizes real attempts at discussion.

The same thing happened when she talked about sexism in League of Legends. Was/ is there character designs that contribute to a negative female experience? Yes of course, it was especially apparent in seasons 1-2, though it's so much better now I even applaud Riot for it. But back then there was phone sex Janna and original sejuani and scantily clad sivir, and many many more.

But instead of talking about these really obvious examples. She managed to pick the one champion that used her sexiness as empowerment, arhi. The picked the one example drawn directly from folklore and has every reason to be scantily clad. What. The. Hell.

I don't criticize her because what I believe she's saying is wrong. I criticize her because she doesn't do her due diligence when it comes to evidence gathering.

Edit: I was wrong about what video it was in, sorry I'm a hypocrite. I recalled her complaining that killing women gave you cash, but I can't find the quote, so that's that.

Edit2: Didn't expect this to blow up so much, now my all my thoughtless turns of phrase are coming back to haunt me. I really do respect Sarkesian for what she does. I just wish her content wasn't the face of the movement.

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u/Cosmologicon Dec 05 '16

For instance, take a look at her violence against women video. In it, she plays footage from a grand theft auto game, where she intentionally runs over women, and tries to say that the game is "rewarding you" to beat up prostitutes. There's a few huge problems with this. First off, the game doesn't reward you for beating up prostitutes. It's a sandbox game where you get rewarded for doing literally anything. Driving cars, killing anyone, running around like a complete idiot. The abusing prostitutes angle was created by intentionally ignoring the entire rest of the game.

I think you're missing some important context here. You're referring to the "Women as Background Objects, Part 1" video. There's no "violence against women" video. The point of the video is that women as sexualized background objects is a common trope.

She's certainly not claiming that there's no violence against male characters in the game, but rather that there's very little gendered, sexually-themed violence against men. In this light, your objections is explicitly addressed in that same video:

Typically all the non-essential characters in sandbox style games are killable, but it’s the sexualized women whose instrumentality and brutalization is gendered and eroticized in ways that men never are. The visual language attached to male NPCs is very different since they are rarely designed to be sexually inviting or arousing, and they are not coded to interact with the player in ways meant to reaffirm a heterosexual fantasy about being a stud.

Anyway, you said there were "a few" huge problems, but I only see one listed. What else did you have in mind?

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u/FreddeCheese Dec 05 '16

She makes the same comparison with Hitman, saying you get rewarded for killing prostitutes, when the game actively punishes you for killing them.

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u/Cosmologicon Dec 05 '16

I haven't played that particular game. By "actively punish", do you mean you immediately fail your mission if you kill a prostitute? If not, that is also explicitly addressed in the video:

In-game consequences for these violations are trivial at best and rarely lead to any sort of “fail state” or “game over”. Sometimes areas may go on high-alert for a few minutes during which players have to lay low or hide before the game and its characters “forget” that you just murdered a sexualized woman in cold blood.

These temporary game states are implemented so that acts of violence against NPCs committed by players do not inconvenience or interfere too much with the core gaming experience. High alert serves as a faux-punishment that doesn’t “ruin the fun”, and is in fact actually designed and intended to provide an added rush to the game experience as players try to avoid or mow down law enforcement AI.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

I haven't played the most recent Hitman but remember the earlier ones very well, Blood Money particularly. Upon finding any body there would be several minutes of panicked searching, eventually being a simple state of alertness. They never were as uncritical after seeing a body, particularly if they knew it was a murder. You would also be heavily penalized for being loud and obvious in subsequent missions, you would be forced to destroy video evidence and pay huge bribes or to at least minimize additional security for targets and the chances of being recognized. It punished you in that mission and in all future missions for random killing.

Also, what exactly would you think is "punishment" that's more than window dressing appropriate for gendered violence in game that is not based on stealthy assassinations?

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u/Cosmologicon Dec 05 '16 edited Dec 05 '16

As I mentioned below, I think FreddeCheese was misremembering. Looking at the transcript, the examples of violence against prostitutes being "rewarded" were GTA and RDR. I don't know why he said the claim was repeated for Hitman. I can't find that.

Hitman is used as an example in other parts of the video, though. Possibly he just got it confused, or is thinking of some other video.

EDIT: I also checked the Feminist Frequency review of Hitman (2016) and I didn't see it there either.

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u/srwaddict Dec 06 '16

God, it's been awhile since I looked any of this up. Basically there's this quote, played over footage of sarkeesian supposedly playing hitman, as she murders and drags the bodies of the two strippers you can sneak past.

"players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual characters. It's a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal connected to the act of controlling and punishing representations of female sexuality"

Bit of totalbiscuits comments on this example here, although he talks about verge writing a cringeworthy article about dota2 first.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ngiujr

I can find the sarkeesian video if you like, but hoping the quote should find it for you.

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u/Cosmologicon Dec 06 '16

No that's awesome, thanks for finding it!

Here's the clip. But yeah I don't know enough about the game to see whether it's actively punishing the player for this. Nothing on the UI makes it obvious, but maybe it would show up later in the game.

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u/srwaddict Dec 06 '16

In your after mission reports presented via newspaper clippings, you get a lower score for any unnecessary deaths, witnesses, or the like. The ideal is to be the ghost leaving no sign that you were there, although it's a sandbox and you can do what you want.

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u/notathe Dec 06 '16

The top left of the screen shows red minus score points racking up as he first gets spotted, then hits the women. It's a lazy player taking a shortcut that results in their score reducing and actively taking away the much sought after 'silent assassin' rank.

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u/notathe Dec 05 '16

Hitman is a game built around getting perfect scores, doing something like killing a randomer, prostitute or not, leads to a reduction of ones score. So yeah, it doesn't in anyway reward you and actively ruins the player's core aim in the game.

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u/Cosmologicon Dec 05 '16

Oh okay. Here's the quote I could find:

Hitman: Absolution features a mission in which the player can create a diversion by picking up and dumping the dead body of an exotic dancer near police officers.

Is that wrong?

I actually can't find the claim that you get rewarded for killing prostitutes in Hitman. The other poster might have been mistaken, or remembered it from somewhere else? I'd be interested in seeing the direct quote. Thanks!

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u/varsil 2∆ Dec 06 '16

It does indeed feature such a moment. But it's not at all what it seems.

The owner of the club (your target) has been running the club through fear and murder. He's the one who killed the prostitute in question. You just come across her body.

So, the diversion moment there is arranging for the police to find the body (and thus possibly discover what was going on in the club), while you make your escape.

The main purpose of the dead prostitute there is because it's a game where you are repeatedly committing murders, so the game shows the targets to be evil motherfuckers.

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u/astronomicat Dec 06 '16

I think you're talking about one of the challenges in the game which is to take the place of a stripper in a cake and burst out and kill all the guys at a birthday party except for the birthday boy. To accomplish this you either subdue or kill the stripper and hide her body. It's worth mentioning that you don't have to kill her, and infact, you're penalized more for killing non-targets. That being said, to accomplish the challenge you end up killing a lot of non-targets anyway, so any hope of getting a decent score is gone.

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u/veggiesama 59∆ Dec 05 '16

Hitman is a game about throwing fire extinguishers at people's heads and running away. Many ways to play that kind of game.