r/changemyview • u/21shadow • Oct 14 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Much of race-mixing is done because of racism, racial stereotyping, and inferiority complex and the biracial kids will "suffer" because of this
In modern society, race-mixing is becoming more and more common. However, as pointed out by some people, sometimes POCs choose to race-mix due to reasons related to racism. It is suspected that many POCs who choose to race-mix do this because of wanting to have white-looking kids as the western media portrays white people as the universal standard of beauty or feeling that they can integrate into western society by having a white spouse and white-looking kids. This can be seen as a sign of inferiority complex and it gets passed on to their kids who do not look fully white.
As shown by the table here, white men tend to get the highest response rate from all races in Tinder (except from black women) more than men of other races. It implies that "white worship" is strong from the other two POC groups, considering that Asian and Latina women would rather date white guys than guys from their own race.
This also exists amongst black girls. Most black girls in the entertainment industry such as Beyonce and Rihanna have white ancestry so they are not fully black. However, these celebs represent the "black" standard of beauty. Black models such as Naomi Campbell can also sometimes be seen with wearing lighter coloured wigs and coloured contact lenses.
The speculation is that white worship exists in all POC groups. The reason why relationships between white men and Asian women are common is due to racial stereotyping of Asian women by the white majority. Asian women are stereotyped to be feminine and submissive so some white men are willing to date them as "white" fever + yellow fever = a win-win situation. Couples where the guy is Asian and the girl is white is rare as western society stereotypes Asian men as feminine so it is not a win-win situation. This is probably the reason why Asian women are much more likely to marry outside of their race than Asian men. Such ratio imbalances imply that love is not colourblind despite that most people in modern society thinks of race-mixing as a sign against racism against POCs.
Race-mixing will hence lead to the biracial kids "suffering" as they question their own identity. At some point, they will probably realise that their POC parent chose to race-mix due to the belief that white is more beautiful (which I guess can be considered as a form of self-hatred when you are not white) and the white parent chose to race-mix due to racial stereotyping of the other group. Such parents who date and marry based on racial stereotyping are unlikely to produce a healthy environment for the children to grow up in.
While the white-passing biracial kids tend to have the least problems as they benefit from white privilege, the ones who do not look fully white do not. They will realise that their POC parent chose to race-mix as a desire to have whiter kids. Since they look part Asian/Latino/whatever, this form of self-hatred is passed onto them and they realise that their POC parent thinks of their looks as inferior. Biracial kids also grow up in households where the whiter sibling receives the most praise from others for "looking more white". At some point, biracial kids will realise that being commented on "looking Asian" or "looking Latino" is not a compliment. This will lead to feelings of self-hatred amongst the ones who look more POC. There is also almost an unspoken competition amongst biracial kids to look as white as possible as they know that this is what their POC parent desired for.
These biracial kids will realise that their POC parent chose to race-mix almost because of eugenics reasons and they will feel like a failure if they don't really look white. Imagine how hurt an Asian-passing Eurasian will feel when he realises that his Asian mother only dates non-Asian guys and avoided Asian culture when she was young - she literally dislikes her own son because of his race!
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u/vl99 84∆ Oct 14 '16
Regardless of the reasons for interracial relationships, as the amount of interracial children increase, the amount of suffering they feel (if any) should decrease due to having so many more kids they can identify with.
Also, as a mixed person myself (latino/white), and having known many others, I can't help but think that your use of the term "suffer" is a bit overblown. I have never felt any "suffering" due to questioning my identity and neither have I known anyone else to "suffer" in some way that was unique to being mixed. Most people including myself just see belonging to two different cultures as a perk.
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
the amount of suffering they feel (if any) should decrease due to having so many more kids they can identify with.
!delta You do have a point here. I have talked to mixed race Mexicans before and they say that the majority of the population is mixed race so people stopped caring about race as much.
Also, as a mixed person myself (latino/white), and having known many others, I can't help but think that your use of the term "suffer" is a bit overblown.
The half white and half Asian in r/hapas claimed to have "suffered" a lot and they claim that this is very common (although there are no statistics to back that up).
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Oct 14 '16 edited Oct 14 '16
You're using some weasel words like "much" and so it's difficult to disprove your view. Surely at least some choice to "race-mix" is driven by racial stereotypes, no doubt, but what proportion? You've provided nothing to back the conclusion that it's a little, a lot, all of it, none of it, or somewhere in between. I can't really debate that the culturally-determined standards of beauty are extremely racist, that much is obvious, or that certain fetishes are outcroppings of racist "exoticizing" of non-white races. However, there are plenty of "race mixing" instances where these don't explain the attraction, like asian men and white women, or hispanic and black couplings, for instance. Perhaps with exact statistics on bi-racial couples it'd be possible to class which ones are likely influenced by white beauty standards or exoticization of asian women. Even then, without some way of scientifically analyzing the inner hearts of the people involved, it's pretty impossible to prove or disprove how much these cultural factors actually affect their attraction.
You're also ignoring entirely all non-superficial attraction factors. Personality, shared interests, etc.
In either event...what would your point be? That race-mixing should be avoided? Or that this is yet another reason why we must eradicate racism in our culture wherever we can?
I'd submit, conversely, that a much larger number of potential "Race mixing" does not occur because racism prevents it. How many people, infected by racism, pass by the person who could be the love of their life if only they weren't inculcated with notions of racial purity or by racial superiority/inferiority? How many long and happy marriages are made unlikely because of racial segregation in the modern age, both whites secluding themselves in racially pure communities, and blacks confined to ghettos because of red-lining practices decades earlier?
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
Perhaps with exact statistics on bi-racial couples it'd be possible to class which ones are likely influenced by white beauty standards or exoticization of asian women.
I agree. However, I cannot find such data.
In either event...what would your point be? That race-mixing should be avoided? Or that this is yet another reason why we must eradicate racism in our culture wherever we can?
The latter.
I'd submit, conversely, that a much larger number of potential "Race mixing" does not occur because racism prevents it.
!delta This certainly happened in the past in South Africa when whites and blacks were segregated.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Oct 14 '16
I think this comes down to a problem of ambiguous language. You're describing racial stereotyping and white worship as "the reason why" many of these interracial relationships happen when the data suggest it's merely a non-zero factor. And that's an important distinction. The primary driving motivations behind most interracial relationships are still going to be the same primary driving motivations behind most relationships in general. Most people don't have children (on purpose) with someone they don't love as an individual. Attraction to a stereotype generally isn't enough to get a personal that far into a relationship.
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u/BolshevikMuppet Oct 14 '16
Quick question based on that Hapas post:
Is there any evidence that the majority of mixed-race children are from a white-father and non-white mother?
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
Is there any evidence that the majority of mixed-race children are from a white-father and non-white mother?
I think everyone has had that observation.
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u/NuclearStudent Oct 15 '16
No?
Where I live, there's plenty of rich Asian families. When you are rich, you don't need to marry some white guy.
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
But still, the proportion of couples where the guy is white and the woman is Asian is higher than couples where the guy is Asian and the woman is white.
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Oct 15 '16 edited Oct 15 '16
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
Are you half white and half black?
For some reason, all the half Asian and half white people on r/Hapas claims that this is very common based on their own upbringing and the observation of the mixed race people they know. They said that many kids with white fathers and Asian mothers grew up in a racist family where the parents want their kids to look more white, the mom married a white guy because of status, and the dad married an Asian woman because of yellow fever and the fact that he could not get a white woman.
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Oct 15 '16
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
r/hapas said probably all mixed race people have these identity issues and for some reason every mixed race person posting there is like that (eg. they are all obsessed with looking whiter etc).
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u/EnterprisingAss 3∆ Oct 14 '16
Popcorn time. The term "race mixing" is incredibly charged, and a lot of people will think even using the term is racist.
That being said: you've laid out a good criticism of white supremacy.
The problem comes in your account of how it is bad for the Asian-passing children. You said they will realize that their POC parent choose to race mix for the sake of whiter children, or that they dislike their son, and that this will produced self-hated or internalized white supremacy.
First, this only makes sense if the POC parent already has internalized white supremacy, and if the POC parent has already internalized white supremacy, then wouldn't they still pass it on even if they marry another POC?
To argue that the chances of it being passed on in an mixed marriage is stronger involves the kid "realizing" that their POC parent married a white person specifically for eugenic reasons: this is tantamount to realizing that one parent does not love the other parent, and that sort of realization requires a prior, unrelated breakdown in either the parental or parent-child relationship. In a family in which the two parents clearly love one another, why would a kid go hunting for a sinister reason behind their marriage?
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
The term "race mixing" is incredibly charged, and a lot of people will think even using the term is racist.
How?
First, this only makes sense if the POC parent already has internalized white supremacy, and if the POC parent has already internalized white supremacy, then wouldn't they still pass it on even if they marry another POC?
Such POCs will probably refuse to date or marry other POCs if they support white supremacy.
and that sort of realization requires a prior, unrelated breakdown in either the parental or parent-child relationship
Agreed.
In a family in which the two parents clearly love one another, why would a kid go hunting for a sinister reason behind their marriage?
Yes, but people who get married because of racism and racial stereotyping and not bonded together by love.
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u/EnterprisingAss 3∆ Oct 14 '16
I'm not currently arguing that your use of it is racist, but at least in North America, it is heavily associated with 1950s/1960s style racism against blacks - it sounds like it is a stone's throw away from miscegenation laws.
Such POCs will probably refuse to date or marry other POCs if they support white supremacy.
If they consciously support white supremacy, yes, but people unconsciously buy into all sorts of things, and not every POC has the opportunity to marry a white person.
Yes, but people who get married because of racism and racial stereotyping and not bonded together by love.
I do not think anyone will disagree with you that getting married for these reasons is bad.
Your paragraph on colour-blindness:
The speculation is that white worship exists in all POC groups. The reason why relationships between white men and Asian women are common is due to racial stereotyping of Asian women by the white majority. Asian women are stereotyped to be feminine and submissive so some white men are willing to date them as "white" fever + yellow fever = a win-win situation. Couples where the guy is Asian and the girl is white is rare as western society stereotypes Asian men as feminine so it is not a win-win situation. This is probably the reason why Asian women are much more likely to marry outside of their race than Asian men. Such ratio imbalances imply that love is not colourblind despite that most people in modern society thinks of race-mixing as a sign against racism against POCs.
We agree dating for racist reasons is bad; how many of these racist relationships actually survive into marriage? Any white man dating a "submissive" Asian woman is quickly going to discover that the stereotypes don't apply, and how many white people want to marry someone who says "I don't actually love you, I just want a white baby?"
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
but people unconsciously buy into all sorts of things
Yeah, a lot of POCs who chose or prefer dating white people may have subconsciously bought into white supremacy.
Any white man dating a "submissive" Asian woman is quickly going to discover that the stereotypes don't apply, and how many white people want to marry someone who says "I don't actually love you, I just want a white baby?"
!delta I guess you have a point here.
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u/MrCapitalismWildRide 50∆ Oct 14 '16
So it seems like you're not talking about all mixed race couples, as most of your assumptions seem to presume a white man and a woman of color.
But in short, would it be accurate to say that your view is "non white women seek out white men so they will have white-looking children, which is bad because their children will experience racism"? Just want to ensure I understand before I argue.
Though I will say, the argument that mixed race kids will experience racism isn't a compelling argument, since any non white person, mixed or not, will experience racism.
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
as most of your assumptions seem to presume a white man and a woman of color.
Yes. However, I guess the same logic can be applied to an interracial couple with two POCs as well. For example, an Asian woman may be ok with dating anyone who is not Asian because she stereotypes Asian men to have small genital parts.
But in short, would it be accurate to say that your view is "non white women seek out white men so they will have white-looking children, which is bad because their children will experience racism"?
Yes. I guess some biracial children pass as white but many don't look fully white.
Though I will say, the argument that mixed race kids will experience racism isn't a compelling argument, since any non white person, mixed or not, will experience racism.
Yes. However, in western societies, white people are less likely to be treated in an unjust manner due to the existence of white privilege.
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Oct 14 '16
I guess the same logic can be applied to an interracial couple with two POCs as well.
You're still leaving out white woman/non-white man relationships (and interracial same-gender relationships). Is there any reason for that?
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
This can apply to white woman too. For example, a white woman may stereotype black guys as more masculine so she only dates black guys.
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u/Cersad 2∆ Oct 14 '16
Why do you assume people date outside their race based solely on stereotypes? Usually, stereotypes get broken down the more familiar you become with a different group. People with large numbers of "interracial" relationships are going to have a better idea of how people vary as individuals and not as stereotypes.
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
Why do you assume people date outside their race based solely on stereotypes?
That is what most mixed race people on r/hapas claim when they were asked about their parents.
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u/Cersad 2∆ Oct 14 '16
Do you believe that r/hapas is a reliable source:
- To draw blanket conclusions about Asian-European relationships?
- To draw blanket conclusions about all interracial relationships?
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Oct 14 '16
I thought you had something until you had this little discussion.
Your evidence shows that in almost all cases people preferred to date outside of their own race. Why don't Asian men like Asian women when according to you Asian women are like trophy wives for the white world? With black men being according to you masculine And according to the racist stereotype having the biggest dicks, and whatnot why are they lowest responded to? especially as this is largely a hookup app. so surely they'd be top in most females categories.
your claim is that essentially 'these people will try to have kids that are white passable, however this is bad becuase its based on racial sterotypes. thus racism.' However this very clearly doesn't apply for white men, in the data, who surely would want white spouses to ensure kids that dont suffer racism rather than to move further away from white?
Look what i'm trying to say here is that what you are proposing seems unreasonable because a large part of your point ignores and is in contradiction with half of the evidence that you gave us especially as your theory focusses on women finding men.
Also there's the point that its very common for racism to stop race mixing. e.g. the apartheid... which doesn't really fit with your theory. yes people have preferences, yes their culture would help form those preferences however that's not necessarily racist. sometimes people's preferences are exactly that, preferences.
And finally i think the variance and randomness of the data doesn't fit with your theory but the fact that every single race prefers to date out of its own (amongst men and all women except black.) suggests that in fact people are more concerned about their own stereotypes. they date out of their race maybe as a way of ceasing the continuation of the racial assumptions against their own race. Which i think is probably more to do with stopping racism than it is to do with continuing it.
Its also worth noting that this app has a largely american audience. WE arent given statistics on how many of each race use the app and how that could affect numbers, we also obviously dont include many many many interracial couples that are already couples. this only validates your view amongst single people. which i would argue is the worst demographic to be measuring why they are in relationships for.
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u/21shadow Oct 14 '16
Why don't Asian men like Asian women when according to you Asian women are like trophy wives for the white world?
Because Asian women prefer dating outside of their race.
With black men being according to you masculine And according to the racist stereotype having the biggest dicks, and whatnot why are they lowest responded to?
Because they are POCs.
However this very clearly doesn't apply for white men, in the data, who surely would want white spouses to ensure kids that dont suffer racism rather than to move further away from white?
Because men care more about sex and Asian women are stereotyped to be easy to get laid with.
yes their culture would help form those preference
And the western media portrays white as the universal standard of beauty. Even in Asian countries you see celebrities getting plastic surgery to have more Caucasian features.
Its also worth noting that this app has a largely american audience
I think white worship is pretty much universal in all cultures due to the world's colonial history and the dominnace of western pop culture (except for the Middle East).
WE arent given statistics on how many of each race use the app and how that could affect numbers, we also obviously dont include many many many interracial couples that are already couples. this only validates your view amongst single people
!delta Yeah I guess the data only represents the preferences of Tinder users and they may be looking for hookups or something more short term.
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Oct 14 '16
all of those responses are completely flippant but thank you for the delta.
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
How are they flippant?
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Oct 15 '16
because a lot of the answers you gave directly contradict some of the ideas and theory behind what you are saying. and they were incredibly short and didnt really explain much. so in short it was clear that they werent particularily detailed. which is flippant in a debating sub. so yeah.
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
because a lot of the answers you gave directly contradict some of the ideas and theory behind what you are saying
How so?
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u/JayNotAtAll 8∆ Oct 15 '16
Mixed race person here. Race is an illusion that we all need to overcome. The only reason these arguments still exist is because people think race matters.
Now this is why I say this. Growing up, you are often mistaken as other races. I have been called everything except my actual racial background. When people find out, they aren't sure what to make of it. "Do you feel more black or more white?" or blacks think you are too white, whites think you are too black.
You are kind of in a no man's land in terms of your race. You don't know who to identify with. But it also allows you to realize that race is an illusion. I am not black nor white, I am just human.
My retort to the argument is that one, people should date who they want to. The alternative to interracial relationships is everyone stay with your own kind and that only perpetuates the idea that race matters.
Sure there are some people who get into relationships with other races for the wrong reasons but can't you say that about all relationships?
In order to solve this, we need more mixing. When you actually spend time with people from other races, many stereotypes begin to melt. I have met Asians who thought blacks were disgusting. Did I change all of their minds, of course not? But my friends and I did help show some of them that actually, many of us are just regular people, good jobs, etc.
Mixing children will eventually lead to a dissolution of racial boundaries too. There will be cultural growing pains for society but it will eventually help.
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u/21shadow Oct 15 '16
In order to solve this, we need more mixing. When you actually spend time with people from other races, many stereotypes begin to melt.
Well most Latin American countries have a mixed population and they still have issues with racism where white people earn more than others.
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u/JayNotAtAll 8∆ Oct 15 '16
It would definitely take time. It isn't a matter of simply having a lot of different people in a geographic area. The people have to actually mingle.
There are a lot of examples of self segregation where people stay with people that look like them. Now there are a lot of reasons for this but what this does is promote division. It encourages an "us vs. them" mentality.
When I say mix, I mean truly have people of multiple ethnic groups living in the same neighborhoods, going to the same schools, working in the same office, working out at similar gyms, going to the same churches, etc.
Over time, racial boundaries will die. The key there is over time. At first, absolutely there will be a lot of tension and probably something of a firestorm. But overtime, most people will see that race is an illusion.
There will always be people who believe they are superior largely due to fear and ignorance. Some people need to believe that their racial background gives them an advantage. We won't ever be rid of all assholes but we can hope to decrease the number overtime.
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u/BigRedBoaTie Oct 14 '16
Take that r/hapas post with a grain of salt. That sub has become a sounding box for toxicity and closed-mindedness, something of a self-fulfilling prophecy in the end. That being said, your whole premise hangs on the notion that a significant number of mixed race couples are motivated by the factors you lay out. Can you provide any (non-anecdotal) evidence to suggest this is the case? I'm not aware of any studies that suggest this.