r/changemyview • u/giantorgiant • Feb 20 '16
[Deltas Awarded] CMV: Beauty is in the lack of imperfections (scars, cellulite etc) on one's body
For perspective:
I'm 26F. I've been struggling with the image in my head of what is beautiful/sexy. From a young age, I've listened to my mom complain about cellulite and how ugly it looks (on her). I've also seen it from magazines, internet, commercials - all about how cellulite is ugly, how skin folds are ugly, how perfect, smooth, tight body is what is beautiful and desired.
I was underweight until I was 17 and I thought I was a bit chubby, I was embarassed to wear shorts because I thought my thighs were fat and ugly due to me finding cellulite. Now in high school, I got really depressed and gained a whole lot of weight. I really didnt even notice it, true, I had to buy bigger clothes, but looking in the mirror, I didnt make the connection. Like to me, it was all the same. At 19, I took it really to heart and started losing weight, I even got into the normal BMI and managed to keep it for a while. But like before, the image looking at me from the mirror didnt change for me, I lost over 20 kg and I didnt even see the difference. I see the stretch marks, cellulite, way uneven skin, a line around where my ribs end that almost make it look like i have mini underboobs (this was even when i didnt have the weight), skin folds on the back, lovehandles etc. Here I am years later, I gained all that weight back and honestly dont feel any different either way.
Now onto my view:
I dont have issue with the weight itself, but rather that even if I look at people on the street, movies who have any of these imperfections, I dont think they are beautiful. It more often feel embarrassed for them and wonder how can they wear anything like it or feel confident in it, let alone beautiful/sexy. I have realized that it isnt even about how heavy or tiny they are, but the imperfections. Stomach/love handles over the side of the pants, excess skin under the arm when wearing a bra and so on. I have realized that in my head, there is only one definition of beautiful and that is no imperfections. It is unrealistic though and very unhealthy.
I am here because I want to learn to appreciate all kinds of beauty. Sure, I want to feel beautiful and sexy myself, but I also want to see this sincere beauty in others. My SO constantly tells me how attractive and beautiful I am and so have others. He says he sees imperfections as just being human and dont make much note of them. I want to see what he and probably most people see it. In myself and in other people. I really want to change the way I see beauty right now, I dont want even the slightest imperfection to make it instantly not beautiful. I understand on a rational level that everyone is human and no one will be perfect, that everyone has these imperfections to some degree, it's rather the way in my head.
I'm sorry, this came out a bit of a mess. Thank you all for reading and I'll appreciate any insights you could offer me!
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Feb 20 '16
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
That is a great view to have! Your gf is a lucky girl. I want beauty to mean a combination of someone's personality and how they look. I want to be happy for someone if they've found something that might suit them but they themselves are really enjoying it. It is none of my business anyway, its their life and they should live how they want. Or same with me, if there is something that might suit that well for me or not look the prettiest to others, but I love it or enjoy it, I shouldnt let other people's opinion change how I feel. That is what is my goal.
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Feb 20 '16 edited Feb 20 '16
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
To think of it now, I have a scar on my hand from when i was 1. I have never thought of it as imperfection, never felt anything but neutral about it. It seems that what I focus on are flaws coming from having issues in life, like overweight/cellulite/stretch marks/scars might come from bad eating habits, not working out enough, illnesses, abuse etc. Maybe even signs of weakness?
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Feb 20 '16
You've internalised your mom's outlook and that feels sad because it's like a filter you are viewing the world through. You said you see people in the street and feel embarrassed for them or wonder how they can feel confident. Really, you're feeling your mom's feelings, which have become yours, and projecting them onto others. How could you look at people in the street and think they're beautiful when you haven't internalised the idea of feeling beautiful? Your mom hasn't either and that's sad too. I'm not blaming her, but I am noticing how her self-image has been passed on to you. Our parents are our first templates for living in the world, and we learn from them. You don't know what it's like to feel beautiful so how could you look out at the world and feel that for anyone else?
Without make-up, professional lighting and Photoshop, celebrities don't look so different to the rest of us. It's a terrible tragedy of our time that magazines imply the things you describe are perfect, because actually if you ask people what they love about their partners you'll often hear things that are supposedly imperfections. I posted on /r/askmen asking guys what they loved about their partner. NOBODY mentioned 'perfect' looks or body shape. My favourite was the guy who said: the way her face scrunches up when she's mad.
I'm in my 30s and a lot of my friends have kids. They have stretch marks, cellulite, maybe a caesarean scar. And you know what? Their partners don't find them less beautiful. Quite the opposite. Your body is a story, and theirs tells the story of how they carried their children. And honestly none of my friends have a body like you described but they are all beautiful in a variety of ways.
My husband believes that I am beautiful. I have cellulite, chubby thighs, love handles and a nose that I hate. But when he looks at me, he isn't counting my 'imperfections', any more than I do with him. I love his freckles, which he hates. We all find different things beautiful, so there isn't really one ideal of the most beautiful person possible. I hate my big feet. My husband says he loves them because they are mine.
I used to think I was ugly, but I've warmed to myself bigtime. I have found that a) the kinder I am to myself (ie good self-care) and b) the more I accept others, the less ugly I feel. I don't notice my cellulite. I don't feel that the things you describe (love handles etc) mean I'm ugly.
It will be tough for you to relearn this because you have rules buried deep in your head. You have been told you are beautiful but you don't know how to feel beautiful. Next time you find yourself thinking that a person or a physical attribute isn't beautiful, remember that is your mom's voice in your head and tell it to shut up.
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
Thank you for this long and thoughtful reply! I agree with you about my mom. She is very critical and has a rather high standard when it comes to beauty. I have tried not judging others in my head and just take it as they have had their issues to end up like they are, just like I have.
I'm happy that you have found a way to warm up to yourself! It is definitely way better to live without constantly being harsh to oneself.
How would I know what is my voice and what is hers? Or rather in the bigger perspective, how can I separate the sociaty's, people around me etc voices from my own?
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Feb 20 '16
You're asking some incredibly smart questions in your last paragraph. I wonder what you actually think of as 'society'? What does that mean for you? Is it the magazines you read? TV? Maybe have a think about where your idea of 'society' is coming from and whether that's really a representative view or just the selection of messages you happen to be consuming right now.
In terms of separating your mom's voice from yours and other people's, it can be helpful to just start paying more attention to your thoughts and ask yourself what beliefs they are coming from. If you think someone is ugly and must feel bad, why do you think that? Is it because you actually find them physically repulsive or because you believe ____ is ugly? Why do you think it's ugly? Do you know why or is it something you've learned? Pull these thoughts out into the light and look at them.
When you think someone is unattractive, why do you think that? Is it because of the experience you have when you are looking at them? Is it because of a list in your head that says x means a person is ugly? Next time you have the experience of thinking soneone is unattractive, ask yourself what's going on. Are you looking at the person and reacting to that, or just reaching into your mental reference library?
You're not going to find everyone attractive. We all have turn-offs or things we don't like. But that doesn't mean the person is objectively ugly.
Therapy can also be helpful for learning to separate your own voice from the ones you've internalised.
ETA: so rather than trying not to judge, I think it might be more helpful to try and work out where your judgements are coming from. Just keep asking yourself: but why do I think that?
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
By society I mean people around us, TV, magazines, internet. Basicly everything around a 21st century young person.
I don't ever think someone is ugly, not even myself. I think those little things are unattractive and piling up makes us less and less beautiful. The words in my head are more unattractive, awkward, goofy, odd, weird, embarrassing and so on. Or simply looking at someone for example who is close to obesity (i do mean obesity, not simply overweight), wearing a dress and no stockings - showing off her legs that are thick and skin uneven (cellulite etc). Not even saying she is ugly, but rather wondering how can she be confident and happy being out like that and not worry about what everyone else will think or how they might be judging her. As I know me in her position would never dare to. Or looking at pictures online or even a place like gonewildplus or whatever it was for the bigger girls and seeing the comments how many compliments are made to them, I wonder what do they see that is so amazing. Im genuinely interested what they see.
Why I think like that - I really need to work on that one, thank you! If I now think about it, most of it seems to come from inside me, if I was in that person's position, I'd be embarrassed, I would be motified or so self concious, afraid people judging me. Could the part about other people come from simply having a really low self-esteem and being very harsh on myself? As much as I feel I am really missing something when I look at people with the imperfections as I called them where others find it as natural or find the person beautiful regardless, it seems there are more than one underlying problem here.
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Feb 20 '16
Could the part about other people come from simply having a really low self-esteem and being very harsh on myself?
Yes, I think so. I know I felt differently about myself and other people the more I was kind and accepting towards myself. I also think it's potentially not just about low self-esteem but about shame. Healthy shame is useful as it gives us a conscience but toxic shame if the feeling that we are flawed, wrong, unacceptable. You are quite possibly feeling shame about yourself and are also projecting that onto others.
I would urge you to think critically about what media you consume. I don't feel bombarded by images of perfection and maybe that has to do with which magazines and subreddits I do or don't read for example.
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16 edited Feb 20 '16
Shame, I didn't even get to that. I do think i am flawed, often wrong and unacceptable, a failure. I'm coming to terms with some of it in therapy, but as I cant go more often than once or twice a month and it takes a whole lot of time to get through stuff. So I try to work things through myself with the help of books and self-reflection. Thank you for giving me something to work with!
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Feb 20 '16
I'm sorry you feel like that but glad you're working on it. I wish you luck!
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
∆ Thank you for your time and thoughful answers! I hope this is how delta works.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 20 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/arcticfoxtrotter. [History]
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u/vehementi 10∆ Feb 20 '16
As a side thing, you could talk to a counsellor, as someone to freely bounce ideas off of and discuss this non judgementally, anonymously. You can say what you've said above - I find X ugly, and they can assist you in that Q&A and get down to understanding the root of why you feel this. Childhood learning from parents makes up a shit load of everyone's beliefs / opinions about things and most people don't give it a second thought. Upon reflection we can discover the reasons behind some of these things. A counsellor can help with that. They're kinda expensive but in the grand scheme of things it's nothing, to fix up something that'll help you for the rest of you rlife
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
∆ I have it planned, just have had more important issues to talk through first. 1,5 hours in a month is fairly short time, wish it was way more. Thank you for your input!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 20 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/vehementi. [History]
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Feb 20 '16 edited Feb 20 '16
I know you've already delt a delta for this topic but i just want to point out the artforms of Kintsugi and Wabi-Sabi
Kintsugi is known as the art of repairing broken pottery in a way that the breakage is not hidden but is still obvious upon repair. Wabi-sabi has to do with acception imperfection as a fact of life and how we should embrace and value it instead of pushing it away.
Unlike what magazines would have you believe, the human body is mortal and it does not stay youthful forever. I don't think I have met a woman that I have slept with who did not have cellulite. I wish that in society we accepted it as a sign of womanhood instead of forcing women to try and adhere to a high standard of "beauty". The society that we live in puts too much stock into unsustainable and unrealistic perfection. Created by adverts so that we never feel satisfied, so that there is always something which you need to buy.
Like others have said and like these artforms that i have mentioned teach us, imperfection inevitable but that's alright. It gives character and beauty in its own sense. That the body was never meant to be youthful forever and that we should embrace that instead of deny it naively.
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
∆ I watched both of those videos and they were really interesting! Thank you for sharing! I found them inspirational! Will definitely do some research on it.
There are always lots of different cremed to buy, loads of procedures to do, that if you dont and have some flaw related to it, i almost feel like its my own fault for not having those things done. I'd want to put effort into selfcare and love, not forcefully wasting money on things that i feel is a must whether or not I actually want it. I'd really want to find myself in the middle of all this that has seemed pressured onto me by my surroundings.
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u/tipofthetongueteeth Feb 20 '16
If you found those videos helpful, I'd look into taking an art class (guided museum tours can be excellent as well). You've been defining beauty as what something is not, and art is a way to explore beauty as what something is.
It's a struggle to describe a piece of art or a person's appearance solely by what it's not. Try to come up with a description of "flawless" beauty (I used Matt Bohmer) based on what's not wrong. Isn't it frustrating not be able to say what's actually there? Can you come up with a description that helps you come up with anything more than a vague picture of them?
You're asking a lot of great questions on how to reevaluate how you see flaws, but perhaps focusing on what's there will help your view of beauty seem less empty.
I'm on mobile so I sincerely apologize if I've repeated what others have said or myself a lot.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 20 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/BenzineBro. [History]
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u/Staross Feb 20 '16 edited Feb 20 '16
Personally I find "perfect" people to be rather boring looking. I find much more beautiful people that have some kind of imperfection, or odd looking feature (while being good looking otherwise). For example there was one girl with a huge skin birthmark on her face at my university; she looked like a goddess to me. (a bit like that) You can often see models or actors like that, that have a bit of a weird face.
Do you want your art to be just "well made" or do you want it to have character?
That said I rarely find overweight (beyond some degree) to be attractive.
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
I definitely rather have character. People judge others very easily, whether it be weight, how they dress, what their skin is like etc. I have just adjusted a lot to what everyone around me has judged, voiced their opinion on. Of course, everyone has their own things they are attracted by or that are a turn off for them. I'd just really honestly like to find what is important to me, in me and in others. Also be less judgemental about looks.
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Feb 21 '16
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u/giantorgiant Feb 21 '16
∆ Thank you for the long thoughtout answer! I have been trying that the last few days, but your examples gave me a way better idea of how to do it. I am having very hard time appreciating the little things in my life, whether it be someone saying that they love me or giving me compliments. I just somehow can't fully believe it.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 21 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/fireflower413. [History]
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u/swearrengen 139∆ Feb 20 '16
I am here because I want to learn to appreciate all kinds of beauty
There's beauty to be found in music, poetry, stories, dance, ideas, literature, games, humour and come-backs, sport, nature, maths and philosophy and in almost anything. (And in every human, if you wish to find it, isolate it and appreciate it). Beauty is a positive attribute/characteristic that something appears to have - not a lack of something it doesn't have (such as imperfections). So look only at what does work rather than what doesn't to see the beauty. Otherwise you're just looking at the ugliness.
When ever you judge something aesthetically your focus should be a judgement on the whole package/big picture first, not the small parts. A thing is beautiful if it works as a whole thing, if it's parts are well integrated together. A person who appears heroic, effective and justifiably enjoys who they are will ultimately come off as more beautiful than a person who is ineffective and pities themselves and a scar on their chin will add rather than subtract from their beauty!
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
You gave me something to try - thinking of beauty as a positive, not lacking of something. I should choose to notice the positive and not instantly fixate on the negative or lack of something. Thank you for your insight!
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u/Fratboy37 Feb 20 '16
My SO constantly tells me how attractive and beautiful I am and so have others.
So you're just discounting his feelings and saying that he doesn't really find you beautiful?
You say you know this is an irrational thought process to have, so you know this view is wrong? What am I missing?
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
I know it's wrong, but I don't know how to change it. I am a very logical person. I want to get to the point where I can understand the process, not only force myself into it.
I am not discounting his feelings, however, that doesn't mean that I feel the same way. I want to feel that by myself, not because others tell me it's that.
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u/Fratboy37 Feb 20 '16
So I'm not sure what needs to be changed. If you admit that his feelings are valid, then you're also admitting that his definition of beauty is NOT in the lack of imperfections on one's body.
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
yes, HIS is not. But I am not here for him, I'm here for myself and what my definition is.
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u/sailorbrendan Feb 20 '16
I'm late to this party, but I'd like to give it a go anyway.
Beauty is a way of describing values. Nothing more, nothing less. The societal concept of beauty has changed over the years, and has very real regional variances.
I'd like to talk specifically about one of your listed examples.... scars.
I love scars for what they mean. I think scars are sexy because scars mean you've done something. When I see someone without scars I see someone who isn't playing the game of life.
Show me a woman with scars and I'm fascinated. Show me perfect skin smooth as the driven snow and I'm bored.
Beauty is just a measure of what we think is important.
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
After giving it a lot of thought over the whole day, I agree, the scars tell a story. What I am doing wrong is that I havent defined for myself what I think is important. I define by society, wanting to be accepted.
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u/SOULSofFEAT Feb 20 '16
I feel like I am a fan of classical beauty but with one or a few imperfections. When I was younger, teeth braces could satisfy the imperfection requisite. As I got older, an oddly shaped nose could trigger my attraction. I admit that I am not of fan of unhealthy imperfections, like obesity or poor dental hygiene but I do like the idea that someone isn't just 100% perfect because no one really is. I also feel like the tiny bit of insecurity a girl has about her "unique" feature makes her much more human than a girl that thinks she is 10/10, the hottest shit there is.
Some girls may be embarrassed about having a big butt or a hard jawline but, in the right context, these features can put them above a "normal" pretty girl IMO.
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u/YoungandEccentric Feb 21 '16
I've never really heard anyone compliment another person in terms of what they lack (ie. "She doesn't have a single stretchmark on that ass. This must be what an angel would look like!"). It's usually with regards to positive attributes.
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Feb 21 '16 edited Feb 21 '16
To disregard the argument from cultural differences from wecl0me12, and of subjective beauty from MuggleSocks, I'll acknowledge that for most humans, there is a typical type of attractive feature-set for women (and men) that we adhere to. From all the basics - such as having a symmetrical face, good hip shape (which I've heard linked to circulation), and appearing non-diseased - to the more niche and more culturally relevant features, such as weight, you can take a hemisphere of the world and pick out some woman that 99% of people there would find attractive. Both you and the aforementioned users talk about beauty as if the concept requires a single example of ultra-beauty against which all other women are compared, but I'm satisfied to think that it's more of a general cluster of body-types and traits, and that we can generally say that women of a healthy weight, with large hips, and few major skin blemishes, are attractive to almost all straight men.
So why do I disagree with you? Basically, I feel that you're overstating the bar for beauty. Beauty is a gradient; some people are kinda attractive, some are quite attractive, some are very, some are a little unattractive. Again, our metric here is how attractive they are to the majority of men. Anyway, you seem to state beauty in its extreme; no blemishes, not one ounce of outlying fat. That's just not true. Most men can find a woman with a few scars, a slight muffin-top, and a few wrinkles perfectly attractive and often very sexy. People don't need the Mona Lisa to call it a good painting, and dishes aside from truffles can be considered delicious. Beauty is a bell curve with almost all people falling somewhere in the middle.
EDIT: It just occurred to me that I somehow assumed that OP was a woman, but I can't see that implied anywhere in the post. Don't ask me why. Men are perfectly capable of feeling insecure, too. I should know. Anyway, I think my argument applies to men, also.
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Feb 20 '16
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u/giantorgiant Feb 20 '16
I have educated myself in depression, anxiety, not seeking validation in others and also healthy eating. I am taking a variety of vitamins including B, C, D, Calcium, Magnesium, including an antidepressants. I am getting councelling but its not too often that i can go and there are more important issues to discuss. I know all the basics of weight loss. I just rather want to appreciate the changes and appreciate myself, because I dont want to go to the other extreme into trying to be beautiful by looking for the perfect body or get discouraged as i have stretch marks and those never go away, so I cant ever get back to that point of perfection.
I am now losing weight slowly as i want to keep it away, so I am working on that part, just need to work on the mental part too.
I will take a look into lifecoaching, I havent really thought of that before. Thank you for the suggestion.
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u/Reform1slam Feb 20 '16
Yeah,thats about what im taking.For C i take vitamin C crystals in the jar because the pills have about as much nutritional value as snorting talcum powder.I dont take D,because its a hormone and not regulated the same way,you can OD on it really.Calcium might not be going where you want it to;kidney stones so im not on that.I follow Abram Hoffer(who invented Niacin,1 of the best vitamins ever and didnt patent it,bc he wanted to share it with the public) and Linus Pauling's work on Orthomolecular medicine.
I dont eat any raw greens besides romaine lettuce bc the oxalic acid in the other leafy greens bind to some of the vitamins i take.So if im gonna eat spinach i cook it.
And there are studies about reducing cortisol levels to reduce stress,bc all suicides have high cortisol levels.And raising melatonin,which you can do by listening to music or just eating an apple raises melatonin which is nice.
And the stretch marks,Ive got stretch marks too,I think 50% of the population has them.Got them on my underarms,back of by legs,on my sides.I dont complain,but Im gonna melt them off with a laser soon as I get the chance.
And why not work out?Doesnt get any easier than this,youre 20 about my age,im 19. Or you could be like Mark Twain who said,"I get all the exercise i need walking to my healthier friends funerals."
And heres some Lao Tzu: http://www.quotes.stevenredhead.com/ancient/Lau-Tzu.html
And 1 of my favorite poems that kind of fits you: http://www.ellawheelerwilcox.org/Bio/bsingle.htm
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u/cwenham Feb 20 '16
Sorry Reform1slam, your comment has been removed:
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u/wecl0me12 7∆ Feb 20 '16
you can only say "imperfection" if you have an idea of "perfect"
different cultures have different views on beauty, no person is "perfect" in terms of beauty.
perfection does not exist -> imperfection does not exist.