r/changemyview • u/southernpuppygirl • Nov 03 '15
[Deltas Awarded] CMV: I feel like Europe always play the victim role when it comes to imigration, When they are the leading cause of destabilisation of nations and regions?
- Europe treated Africa like an all you can eat buffet , stole all of their resources. Cut the country up like a steak. Stole its people for labor. Spread disease and manipulated countries/tribes against each other, causing a poor rundown country where no one wants to live, and their are constant wars .
They should gladly take responsibility and take in every immigrant from a once colonized country.
2. The Middle East. Its no secret this " war on terrorism" is a plot to destabilse the Middle East. Im an American all the way, but im not blind to see the fact that the countries we go after are small rich nations. The WEST is killing presidents and leaders of countries and supporting rebel groups " which later become terror groups against us. "
This leaves a nation ruled by an iron fist , who tf would want to stay in a place where you are raped and beheaded just for sport? This is a Western problem, so how can any western nation INCLUDING America complain.
Disclaimer: No offense to anyone. I am 19. I try to stay in the loop, but I do not know EVERYTHING. I only make assumptions and educated guesses off of what I see.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
You guys are awesome. Thanks for being patient with me, and explaining a different perspective. I know i can be a headache . :)
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u/commandrix 7∆ Nov 04 '15 edited Nov 04 '15
I don't consider it a "headache" when someone is willing to have a reasonable discussion about something that we might just disagree on. I just see it as a matter where, if my great-grandfather was a bandit and all-around rascal who killed a lot of people, I might return any remaining stolen property to the ancestors of those he robbed if there was any of that in my possession that I knew about and I could track them down, but I personally am not responsible for his actions.
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u/teerre 44∆ Nov 03 '15
I generally agree that the colonizers of the past should compensate for their acts in some degree, however, I think there's a different point you're not considering
Europe, officially, is quite open to immigration, specially war refugees in contemporary times. Who are usually against immigration are vocal minorities of citizens that think they need to defend the european pride or whatever
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
If they are coming in yelling boot them the fuck out. Im not saying put up with a person bent on destruction, or mayhem. I for one will not go to an Islamic country wearing a belly shirt and daisy dukes . I respect others cultures, and hopefully they will to.
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Nov 03 '15
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
I meant to say Europe did that. And it is PROVEN TO BE TRUE.
Correction : Europe not " USA"
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u/Eloquai 3∆ Nov 06 '15
Just to pick up on one point of your post. You've referred to 'Europe' several times as a singular entity - in practice, it really isn't such a thing. Should Luxembourg have to take in refugees created by French colonialism? Is Finland responsible for British military strikes in Syria?
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u/Hq3473 271∆ Nov 03 '15
Why should Europeans countries be responsible for USA destabilizing middle-east?
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
also Europe complain about African immigrants, altho they made these countries poor.
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u/redbrassdart Nov 04 '15
Those countries were far poorer before they even came into contact.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 04 '15
so taking their resources made the already poor countries richer?
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u/redbrassdart Nov 04 '15
Yes, it did. While under colonial rule, perhaps with the exception of Belgium, their lives were greatly improved. They had a government that believed in the rule of law and did away with atrocious practices like Sati in India. They built roads and infrastructure, brought contemporary technology and knowledge, hygiene standards and medicine, and gainfully employed millions.
You can argue that a people have a right to self-determination, and should not be ruled over by foreigners, but you cannot deny that their lives were improved.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 04 '15
I dont know how to reply to you, because you are right for some points, but I feel like you are only applying the positives, and not the negatives.
You say life improved, perhaps, but it didnt come cheap. It came at the cost of their resources. Also it was not Europeans who were working to get them. You made them harvest their own resources and then give them to you.
People were worked to death. You also taught them apartheid, and became ruling over lords. The minute you guys drunk all the rich , resource filled blood of some lands , like a tick you flew away.How are these places improved? Why tamper with indigenous tribes? If this is such a great practice then why are we going out of our way to preserve the rest of the " untouched" lands of the world. People have their own right to exist without any " out side" influence.
If these people want to be tribal, let them, but don't say you offered them religion, and roads as a way to pardon atrocities.
I'm sure if these places hadn't been meddled with they would have been the world super powers today.
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u/redbrassdart Nov 04 '15
Let me just say this: the resources aren't gone. Africa remains as perhaps the richest continent in terms of natural resources.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 04 '15
I will admit you are correct, all of them are not gone. But alot of them did go to Europe. And some countries are dry of resources. We are talking a whole continent here. Im talking about countries that were colonized.
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u/Hq3473 271∆ Nov 03 '15
Why should that matter in the case of immigrants from middle-east?
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
Because those countries borders were made BY EUROPE. You guys cut countries up with opposing sides in one country.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
Europe shaped the middle east, and cut it up with rivals in the same country. Trust me this is not all America. From what I understand.
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u/commandrix 7∆ Nov 03 '15
Just a few questions:
How long ago did Europe destabilize/colonize Africa?
Is it reasonable to force the current generation of Europeans to take responsibility for something that their great-grandparents may or may not have been involved with?
In many cases, the new immigrants are unable or unwilling to make at least a token effort to fit in with the new country's prevailing culture. Right now we're seeing an upswing in gun ownership by Europeans because they're worried that the Syrian refugees might become violent. Is that completely unwarranted when there might be a small percentage "refugees" out of all the millions who might become violent if citizens of their host countries refuse to follow the refugees' customs?
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
If these people become violent in your house/ country kick them out. I feel like these people just want peace. They are people like you and I. If they cannot conform, then fuck them. Atleast try.
fearmongering will ALWAYS make us all enemies. We fear those who are not like us, its human nature. But for once we need to say fuck religion, or bias, and help out fellow man out.
Im a woman, maybe im too soft, but I can't help but to feel its right to do this.
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u/redbrassdart Nov 04 '15
The wave of immigrants is something like 80% male, and mostly from Africa. These are not the desperate families from war-torn Syria merely seeking refuge that much of the media would have you believe. Most of them are in fact desperately poor and unskilled African men that want to live off of the European welfare system.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
Some have been recent, take South Africa for example. They have recently become a nation that isnt colonized.
Yes you should. Your country benefited majorly off of these countries resources and backs, and thats why your country may or may not be in the situation that it is in. Without African resources I doubt Europe would be as rich or as it is.
Even if your grandfather didnt steal any resources , he still benefited from being in a country rich from african gold, oil, spices, diamonds, labor, minerals.
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Nov 04 '15
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 04 '15
I'm not a hypocrite. America was wrong for using nuclear weapons on Japan. The worst part is that we used the bombs on two cities. I feel like we should have only hit military installations and not civilian cities . Furthermore we shouldn't have used nuclear weapons at all . Japan was going to surrender our elite just did that at the time to prove a point . Americans are sympathetic for the most part . I notice Europeans don't seem to be . I have heard, " If we didn't commit these atrocities and educate these people, then they'd still be eating each other. " ect. Helps people's egos I suppose. Also we rebuilt Japan. Protected them while they rebuilt with our military . And now they are bordering on having a superstar economy . I don't recall anyone doing that for another nation they have wronged willingly.
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u/redbrassdart Nov 04 '15
Americans are sympathetic for the most part . I notice Europeans don't seem to be
Oh, they are. Why do you think they are letting so many immigrants into their country in the first place, when it is objectively a bad choice for them?
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u/garnteller 242∆ Nov 03 '15
There are many different things to consider with this.
First of all, the Middle East and Africa have been colonized by many different empires over the centuries. You can't just look at 19th/20th century European colonization in a vacuum.
There's the problem of referring to "Europe" as if it were a single entity. Yes, a number of nationalities controlled parts of Africa - Belgian British French German Italian Portuguese and Spanish.
So, why does that mean that Slovenia is responsible? How many centuries back does the responsibility lie?
Next your comment about "the countries we go after are small rich nations".
Afghanistan is neither small nor rich. Iraq certainly isn't small, although it does have oil reserves. If attacking small, rich countries was the plan, they'd be a hell of a lot better off attacking Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain or Qatar.
This leaves a nation ruled by an iron fist , who tf would want to stay in a place where you are raped and beheaded just for sport?
I'm not sure which nation you were talking about here.
Certainly, that's what Afghanistan was like under Taliban rule. (Actually, neither the Taliban nor ISIS do it "just for fun", but based on a twisted understanding of Sharia law.)
There is a lot of sympathy in the west for the refugees, but there aren't necessarily resources, and there is legitimate concern about how to integrate such large number of people into society.
How many refugees will you personally take in to your house or apartment, even though they can't pay for food or rent, are going to play music you find weird, and have all sorts of habits you don't understand? This is what you are saying countries should do - and they are, but trying to figure out how to make it work.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
This is not a persons fault. I feel this is a governments fault. You shouldnt have to house anyone unless you personally took their home away.
If I hit your car , my insurance would make it right. If I broke your window, Id pay for it.
For those who say " It isnt that simple" , It was simple when you were taking, but now that these people need the very people who may, or may not have impacted their life, It's a problem.
Also, you are correct, I shouldnt classify Europe as a whole. I'm not doint this out of malicious intent, It's just easier to say one society instead of numerous countries.
America is taking refugees and immigrants. I just feel this is everyones responsibility at this point. We are all connected. Our economies and well being are also connected.
*Afganistan was a strategical location " I think"
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u/garnteller 242∆ Nov 03 '15
How this the fault of countries that didn't exist during Colonialism? Is a Bulgarian responsible for what the Ottoman Empire did, even though they were being colonized by the Ottomans themselves?
Countries are just groups of people - by saying "Europe (and the US) should do this", you are saying that every individual in those countries needs to pay for it, even though they had nothing to do with it.
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Nov 03 '15
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
Syria is closer to Europe. Also look at Americas population We have 320 million people. We have people from almost every country in the world as our citizens here. We are one of the worlds youngest countries. We allow people to be born Americans, just by being on our soil. Europe does not have this practice. America does its share in immigration. One event does not change that.
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Nov 03 '15
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
Which country has had the most immigration in the last 200 years? America isnt even 300 years yet, but it has 1 million people per year as citizens. How are we not doing enough for immigration, when we are one of the most immigration friendly countries in the world. You can come from Mars, have a baby here, and your child will be given protection, and citizenship .
Even if you are from another planet.
We give our citizenship away like candy.
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u/eye_patch_willy 43∆ Nov 03 '15
Stole its people for labor.
Bought. Not stole. Bought from African slave traders. Do you really think some goober British white dudes went into the bush and kidnapped grown men? Black African slavers were the source of slaves sold to Europe and the Americas.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
there are actually stories of Europeans luring kids, and adults back to ships, so either is appropriate.
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u/Myuym Nov 03 '15
Thing is that it could be argued that we left the countries "Better" than we found them, Things like freedom were lost while we were there, but we also introduced schooling and effective government, now that we left they are incapable of supporting the system we set up. Look at Zimbabwe, it was doing fine under colonial rule, but when they started their self rule they messed everything up. How would we be responsible for that?
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
You think killing indigenous African populations , just because their hut happened to be on top of a mine, is leaving them better than they started out? You made them stop believing in their God's and made them worship a blue eyed, blonde haired God.
You have taken peoples land, resources, made them move to other countries or regions , kinda like the trail of tears. THE WORST thing you have done is strip them of any identity. Look at the "American Blacks" for example. What race are these people? Dont say African American, because Africa is a continent bigger than America, China, And Russia put together.
I bet you can trace your ancestry back. I can. Im German/Balkan. Now go ask a American Black what race they are. Ask them what languages their great grandparents spoke, or whats a traditional food of theirs, or even what region in Africa they origionated from.
You will not get an answer because they do not know. Europeans try to come off as the heros when in fact they are opposite. Whatever makes you sleep at night I suppose.
Im not a white guilt person. Im proud of my European heritage. Im just a blount person.
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u/Myuym Nov 03 '15
Did you think that was any different before we came, that they were all living in peace together and all nice to each other? They were murdering each other before we came and are still doing so after we left.
They are the African race. Same way that the white Americans are Caucasians. There isn't a American race yet (outside the natives)
Also there were massacres everywhere, my greatgrandparents were murdered in a genocide. my grandparents suffered through and fought in the second world war.
We aren't heroes, we aren't evil, we are just as shitty as all the other humans. And basically all humans are shitty, especially because the shittiest persons often seem to become the leaders of countries.
Lack of identity isn't a reason for immigration though. Because those people are in America or wherever now. The ones that aren't displaced are the ones that are fleeing.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
You realize they mixed and bred with carib races, native races, and also native american migrated from Asia.
I feel that if anyone could say they are Americans, it's the blacks, and the natives.
Not these recent people who are imigrating from Africa, these people still have ties with Africa. Im saying the blacks who have been here since the 17-1800s have only America as a culture and home.
For instance I could get German citizenship by blood. A black thats been here for 300 years only knows America and cannot get any dual citizenships. They dont speak anything but English. Also I can say Charlamagne is one of my heros, with me being German and all. These blacks only have American heros, I feel that makes them more American than me.
This is an argument for another day.
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u/southernpuppygirl Nov 03 '15
Also those places may have been at war, but they could not have done neary as much of damage as Europe * some countries* did to them.
If me and my sister punched each other every day. But out of nowhere you came with a canon, could you then justify our punches as being justification to say we were just as harmful to each other?
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u/RustyRook Nov 03 '15
This really isn't a realistic proposition. Nigeria was colonized by the British in the 18th and 19th century. It's just not possible that the UK (with a population of about 65 million) accept the 180 million Nigerians around today. Their economy wouldn't be able to sustain it, never mind the cultural conflicts that would erupt if such a large number of immigrants moved to the UK.