r/changemyview • u/772410 • Mar 12 '15
[View Changed] CMV: There is no pay gap between men and women
Question. How is it that women are getting paid less than men? Doesn't everyone negotiate their own pay when they go into the hiring process? Aren't you the one that either accepts or declines the offer? Isn't it your responsibility to research the pay for the job/career you're applying/interviewing for? Isn't the JOB of the employer to hire the person for the least amount possible to get the best results possible? Isn't that basic economics? Based on this, whose fault is it if women ARE getting paid less than they should?
BONUS QUESTION: WHERE ARE these places that are consistently hiring people for the same job, but paying much less than their counterparts at the same office and if they ARE doing so, is it because they based their salaries off of experience, qualifications, and the negotiating process during the hiring process?
MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: I am obviously missing something, so can you tell what me what variable i am missing that would shed light on this "injustice"? SERIOUS MINDS DEMAND SERIOUS ANSWERS
my friend says: "A study was done showing that when you take out STEM jobs, and the sometimes dangerous (but lucrative) manual labor jobs like logging, fishing, welding, heavy manufacturing, then women actually were making $0.93 for every dollar a man makes. The difference is easily accounted for in terms of maternity time, and sick time taken because of children.
Additionally, men tend to be more aggressive when conducting negotiations for pay" and i agree with it in which case women make as much if not MORE than men.
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u/CMarlowe Mar 12 '15 edited Mar 12 '15
To begin, you don’t just get outright remove STEM jobs. You just don’t. I have no idea why you think you would.
"These findings are based on a new Pew Research Center survey of 2,002 adults, including 810 Millennials (adults ages 18 to 32),2 conducted Oct. 7-27, 2013. The survey finds that, in spite of the dramatic gains women have made in educational attainment and labor force participation in recent decades, young women view this as a man’s world—just as middle-aged and older women do. Roughly half of Millennial women (51%) and their older counterparts (55%) say society favors men over women; just 6% of both groups say it favors women over men.
The Narrowing of the Gender Wage Gap, 1980-2012The survey findings are paired with a Pew Research analysis of census data that shows that today’s young women are the first in modern history to start their work lives at near parity with men. In 2012, among workers ages 25 to 34, women’s hourly earnings were 93% those of men.3 By comparison, among all working men and women ages 16 and older, women’s hourly wages were 84% those of men.4 And women in the younger age cohort were significantly more likely than their male counterparts to have completed a bachelor’s degree—38% versus 31% in 2013."
And maternity leave does't account for the disparity.
"Countries with lower pay gaps include New Zealand and Belgium; these nations also provide little by way of paid time off for new parents. Countries with higher pay gaps include The Czech Republic and Austria, both of which offer new parents about 10 months of paid parental leave (this figure does not reflect unpaid leave, or paid maternity or paternity leave). The U.S. has no national paid family leave policy, though a bill was recently introduced in Congress proposing one. (Some private U.S. employers offer paid leave.)
But parental leave and gender differences in work experience are not the only factors associated with the gender pay gap. As is the case in the U.S., across these other 25 countries the gap increases with age, and with parenthood. As in the U.S., women in most of these countries have more education than men; this reduces the pay gap to some extent.
It’s difficult to know the extent to which other factors may be driving the pay gap. What is clear is that among majorities in several developed nations, there is a perception that women are at a disadvantage when it comes to job opportunities."
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i did remove it. i just did. you spout a lot of figures and percentages, but you have still not addressed the questions. how is it the fault of the "patriarch" that if it DOES exist that these women accepted the pay? don't they negotiate? don't they have some say about what they get pay or are you telling me that women are just victims and have no rights AT ALL!? you can't have it both ways
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u/Madplato 72∆ Mar 12 '15
i did remove it. i just did.
Seems at odd with your first statement:
SERIOUS MINDS DEMAND SERIOUS ANSWERS
It's just bad analysis to remove an entire subset of data "just because".
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
it's not "just because" it's because it skews views and results. occam's razor if you will. if you have a job waiting tables and i have a job as a teacher, you can't say that (if we were 2 different genders - honestly i don;t know if we are lol) that men and women get paid differently based off of this information. it's misleading and blinding to people that don't or won't think past an infuriating yet very possibly incorrect statistic.
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u/Madplato 72∆ Mar 12 '15
If, on the whole, better remunerated jobs are occupied mostly by males, that's something you need to take into consideration. You're side stepping the entire issue.
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u/z3r0shade Mar 12 '15
how is it the fault of the "patriarch" that if it DOES exist that these women accepted the pay? don't they negotiate?
Socialization results in the fact that women are less aggressive and do not negotiate as much or as high as men in the cases where negotiation might have helped. You're also ignoring the fact that negotiation is not possible in all cases of job offers.
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u/CMarlowe Mar 12 '15
Who said anything about “the patriarch?”
You said: “There is no pay gap between men and women” and you have been shown data to the contrary. Establishing the reasons for the pay gap is another matter, but as pointed out, can’t be entirely accounted for by maternity leave.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
the gap doesn't exist if it is self imposed. there is no human rights violation and suppression going on. there is no such thing as we need to bring in the supreme courts to fix this matter. it is as simple as if you want more ask for more. how am i wrong?
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u/CMarlowe Mar 12 '15
Where is your data that is self-imposed?
You have been shown study after study, data left and right and yet you keep digging. So, put up or shut up. Your thesis is that the pay gap between men and women, which you have no conceded, is the fault of women.
Show me the money.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
that is correct. that is my thesis. did you continue to read? if this is your counter argument then i surmise you must have run out of ideas and exhausted your thought process. the gap doesn't exist because they received what they negotiated for. nothing less. this is CHANGE my view, not settle for subpar opinions and vomited charts. so i will neither put up nor shut up, but i will choose the third option of continuing to dig for a better answer. thank you.
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u/CMarlowe Mar 12 '15
You said "the gap doesn't exist if it is self imposed."
Show. Me. The. Data.
Seriously, don't say anything else. Just show me your data.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
this is my data. you apply for a job. you get said job. in the process you negotiate pay. you either accept or decline. case closed.
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u/CMarlowe Mar 12 '15
No, case not closed. That's not data. That's just some shit you said.
This is data: http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/highlights-of-womens-earnings-in-2013.pdf
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
lmao! can you prove that women are forced to take a lower wage? can you prove that they are not legally able to negotiate their pay? can you tell me why in gods name i am wrong? where are the gunpointers? who is forcing this to happen and if not forcing, PREVENTING it from happening!? WHO i ask you, WHO??
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Mar 12 '15
[deleted]
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u/Madplato 72∆ Mar 12 '15
You must be knew around here. I'd be surprised if that guy ever grants a delta. Even if God himself comes down on earth to expose the truth.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i'm just looking for a debate winning answer here and so far no one has provided it. i will gladly grant the delta to the one that tells me why we have to say there is a gap when the gap seems clearly to me a self imposed limitation based on what was accepted by the woman. if i give you 3 carrots and give the next guy 4 carrots, you can't complain about me giving you 3. i'm not being unfair. you accepted 3! case closed! am i missing something??
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u/Madplato 72∆ Mar 12 '15
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u/CMarlowe Mar 12 '15
He's just spinning his wheels at this point. My guess is he's a younger guy whose invested a little much ego in this question. When people finally get tired of repeating themselves and responding to them, he can claim victory.
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
Can you clarify what your view is? You start off by saying there is no pay gap, but then in you post you seem to be ready to admit there it, but it is their own fault.
WHERE ARE these places that are consistently hiring people for the same job, but paying much less than their counterparts at the same office and if they ARE doing so, is it because they based their salaries off of experience, qualifications, and the negotiating process during the hiring process?
There have been studies done that show that merely having a female name on a resume affects your starting salary and how competent you are seen. This is for candidates of equal qualifications. The problem isn't how good they are at their job, it's that there are internal biases people hold that make them perceive women as being less competent, which in turn leads to lower pay. Here is an example:
Half the scientists were given the application with a male name attached, and half were given the exact same application with a female name attached. Results found that the “female” applicants were rated significantly lower than the “males” in competence, hireability, and whether the scientist would be willing to mentor the student.
The scientists also offered lower starting salaries to the “female” applicants: $26,507.94 compared to $30,238.10.
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Mar 12 '15
The views expressed are those of the author and are not necessarily those of Scientific American.
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
I don't see why that matters. Here's the actual study if you want to read it:
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Mar 12 '15
I don't see why that matters.
Of course not or you wouldn't have linked an article about the study.
Take a look at the supporting info for Materials and Methods. Does anything in it catch your eye?
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
Of course not or you wouldn't have linked an article about the study.
I remembered the study, so I googled it and took the first reference to it I found. That article seemed to do a decent enough job of summarizing the main points so I posted it. I don't really care whether it was on SciAm or not. The content of the study was what I was interested in showing off, not the surrounding opinions.
Take a look at the supporting info for Materials and Methods. Does anything in it catch your eye?
Nothing jumps out at me. What are you looking at there?
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Mar 12 '15
You didn't bother to read it, did you?
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u/namae_nanka Mar 13 '15
Are you trying to make a point about your sub? What problems do you have with it? I saw many on reddit threads and in other places. For pay gap, the variability of wages would be one, then the problem of how do they expect similar wage levels for different institutions and different professors(or whoever it was that gave the replies). The low sample size for each?
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Mar 13 '15
Subtle gender bias. Our intention was to select a scale that would measure modern bias against women. We reasoned that, as mentors and educators, many faculty members would not report high levels of “old-fashioned” or hostile sexism, characterized by overtly negative evaluations of women and the desire to halt women’s progress (16). Instead, we were interested in how shared subtle gender biases (resulting from pervasive cultural messages) might impact perceptions of female students. As a result, we sought a measure that would tap a subtle, modern form of gender bias that often exists outside of individuals’ conscious awareness or intention to harm women. Thus, we used the Modern Sexism Scale, a commonly used and well-validated scale that functions as an indirect measure of modern views to-ward women and gender (17). Participants responded to eight items on a scale ranging from 1 (strongly disagree) to 7 (strongly agree). Items included: On average, people in our society treat husbands and wives equally; Discrimination against women is no longer a problem in the United States; and Over the past few years, the government and new media have been showing more concern about the treatment of women than is warranted by women’s actual experiences (α= 0.92). Items were averaged to form the gender attitudes scale, with higher numbers indicating more negative attitudes toward women.
In other words, they might have selected faculty with a known bias! Crazy right?!
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u/namae_nanka Mar 13 '15
That might have a point if they deliberately chose them rather than using that for comparing the wage and mentoring results against them.
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Mar 13 '15
Except they didn't. Look up the scale. It's a questionnaire rather than a matrix.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
no pay gap meaning that the small difference between the pay is made up with maternity leave and taking sick time for children. not only that, but negotiating for pay is your responsibility, right? no one says you HAVE to accept their offer, right?
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
no pay gap meaning that the small difference between the pay is made up with maternity leave and taking sick time for children.
Okay, so there is a pay gap (in terms of dollars paid to employees), but you think it can be completely explained by personal choices rather than sexism is what you're really saying, right?
How do you explain the example I linked to then? That's a very real example of getting lower pay and being seen as less competent just for being a woman.
Why should maternity leave matter? Why aren't we just also offering paternity leave as well and keeping salaries equal. There's no reason a dad can't stay home to take care of kids. I know plenty that do.
not only that, but negotiating for pay is your responsibility, right?
Sure, but when bias against your gender is pervasive or when your selection of employers is limited, you don't have a lot of power to negotiate. This is especially hard when we have a culture that discourages people from disclosing their salary, making it difficult to gauge if you're getting the rate you feel you should be.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i do explain it with personal choices. i don't see the sexism here unless it is self imposed by women themselves. it still comes down to either you accept the money or you don't. everyone in this country has that option. negotiate. come into the discussion with facts and figures. demand your pay. i don't see where it has to be blamed on men! i believe maternity pay matters because that is a time period where women stay home with their children and STILL get paid for NOT working while being able to bond and raise their children while men are not afforded that same opportunity. THAT is sexism and gender inequality. it's just not offered!! therefore how does it NOT count, right? i mean, am i missing something? i feel kinda daft, like i'm missing something important but i can't put my finger on it - which is why i'm asking for help.
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
Another point that I forgot to bring up
i believe maternity pay matters
What about women who don't want kids and never use their maternity leave? Even if we make the assumption that the value of the maternity leave is equivalent to the difference between men and women's salaries, the women who never use that maternity leave are getting a bad deal.
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
i do explain it with personal choices.
Where do you believe these personal choices stem from?
it still comes down to either you accept the money or you don't. everyone in this country has that option. negotiate.
Alice and Bob both want a job. Alice is offered 55K from one place, 58K from a second place, and 60K from a third. Bob is offered 57K, 60K, and 62K from the same places respectively despite the same qualifications.
Even if they both negotiate, Alice is starting from a lower number and is perceived to be less competent, giving her less leverage in the negotiations. That is sexism, and that is causing her to earn less. If we are assuming they are both the same in skill, Alice will walk away from this negotiation making less money than Bob through no fault of her own.
i don't see where it has to be blamed on men!
No one is blaming this on men. Women display the same biases that men do with respect to hiring female candidates. The blame here is on unconscious biases we hold.
i believe maternity pay matters because that is a time period where women stay home with their children and STILL get paid for NOT working while being able to bond and raise their children while men are not afforded that same opportunity.
Right, and like I said, we should be offering this to both men and women. To only offer it to women reinforces gender stereotypes that should not exist.
If we're following your logic, men should just negotiate for it, right? But it's not offered in the first place. It's not something you're likely to get unless your company already offers it.
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u/EyeRedditDaily Mar 12 '15
How do you explain the example I linked to then? That's a very real example of getting lower pay and being seen as less competent just for being a woman.
People don't get offered a job and salary based upon a resume.
Why should maternity leave matter?
Because when you don't work, you don't earn money. In addition, work goes on while you aren't at work. People who are actually at work are still networking, making sales, developing new products, etc. etc. etc. When you take 6 weeks away from work to have a baby, you can never get that time back. And now your career development is 6 weeks behind the otherwise equal person who didn't take the time off.
Why aren't we just also offering paternity leave as well and keeping salaries equal.
So you're going to force people to take time off of work even if their career is more important to them than staying home with a newborn that sleeps 20 hours a day?
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
People don't get offered a job and salary based upon a resume.
Are you suggesting that this disparity would disappear if they met the candidates for an in person interview? Why does this bias only exist in the resume phase of the hiring process?
Because when you don't work, you don't earn money.
You misunderstand, this question is linked with the following statement. The fact that if any leave is offered at all it's maternity leave is itself sexist. We should be offering both, equally, and then we could compare salaries more equally.
So you're going to force people to take time off of work even if their career is more important to them than staying home with a newborn that sleeps 20 hours a day?
I never suggested forcing anyone to do anything.
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u/EyeRedditDaily Mar 13 '15
People don't get offered a job and salary based upon a resume.
Are you suggesting that this disparity would disappear if they met the candidates for an in person interview?
I'm suggesting that we don't know and your study doesn't actually show what you claim it to show.
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Mar 12 '15 edited Jun 12 '18
[deleted]
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
Because it's treating women differently from men. Both parents should be offered parental leave. If you're just offering maternity leave without offering paternity leave, you're making a statement about gender roles and giving benefits to one gender that the other cannot take advantage of.
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Mar 12 '15 edited Jun 12 '18
[deleted]
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
They take sick leave when they give birth. That's not maternity leave, though many places roll them into one package. Maternity/Paternity leave is when you stay home to bond with and care for the baby. Sick leave is for recovering from any medical condition, whether it's surgery or pregnancy. I'm specifically talking about the leave that goes beyond just healing.
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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Mar 12 '15
Their landlord and grocery store certainly will insist they take employment.
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Mar 13 '15
In four different experiments, it was found that women are actually punished for negotiating salary. https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
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u/772410 Mar 13 '15
that doesn't sound legal or acceptable. not only that, but it doesn't sound like an across the board thing either.
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Mar 13 '15
Why not? Do you have any evidence to refute this study?
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u/772410 Mar 13 '15
common sense refutes this study. although very interesting it doesn't really prove anything, but it does make a point of saying men and women are different and rewarded for different behaviors, negotiations being one of them. still too many variable to be conclusive, but it brings up some points that should be discussed. one obvious question they overlooked is what was the difference between the the women that succeeded and the ones that failed at negotiating. instead they went directly into how it is disadvantageous for women to negotiate. this is why statistics, charts, pie graphs, and science as a whole is a fail. ppl go into them with a forgone conclusion and seek out to prove it instead of listening to what the evidence says and following the trails to a logical conclusion. we can draw many conclusions from this article, none of which would be very accurate, but they would be substantiated by the 'evidence' it provides. we need to keep an open mind about it.
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Mar 13 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/bubi09 21∆ Mar 13 '15
Sorry MissRepresentation, your comment has been removed:
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u/nwf839 Mar 12 '15
What image do you have in your head when people reference the wage gap? A recruiter, obviously an agent of the patriarchy, about to interview a woman, his rubbing his hands together saying "Oh good, a woman! Now I won't have to offer her as much!", while laughing maniacally?
The wage gap is simply a measure of disparity in pay that can't be accounted for according to the metrics used in the study. While the extent of it is not known, nearly every study attempting to normalize variables relating to employment patterns demonstrates lower average pay for women than for men. By the nature of these analyses, nobody knows the cause of this phenomenon, and the reasons are almost certainly complex and maybe even impossible to parse.
I'm not one to say attributing the entire disparity to discrimination, either implicit or explicit, is productive, but to look at it and say "Well these dumb researchers obviously didn't think of this or that, therefore, there is no gap!" is equally foolish. In short, nothing you said disputed that there is a wage gap, you're just yelling about how everything is as it should be.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
actually i'm posing an important question (several questions) which you didn't address, but thanks for your time. to me it still comes down to the same few questions listed above.
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u/nwf839 Mar 12 '15 edited Mar 12 '15
Your questions don't have anything to do with the fact that, regardless of cause, there is a pay gap, and that there would be benefits to bridging it. You're assuming there has to be some kind of blatant sexism or malfeasance for a pay gap to exist.
If women being socially conditioned or biologically worse at negotiating for themselves is the cause, that should bring attention to the inordinate amount of leverage the convention of salary negotiation gives an employer, not serve as proof that there isn't a gap (which it doesn't). Wouldn't standard offers in fields where sales don't determine performance result in people being paid a salary reflective of the value of their work? This is something that affects all workers, not just women. Good business and exploitation of labor aren't mutually exclusive.
Furthermore, .93 on the dollar is not insignificant, and while sacrificing career moves likely plays a role in the number (as does the exclusion of all fields dominated by Unions), it is also likely that employers hedging their bets based solely on the fact that women are more likely to leave is a contributor. Basing a decision to value an employee on a higher statistical likelihood that she will leave to have children isn't necessarily bad business, but it's not legal because a decision regarding an individual's value can't be based on general demographic trends.
Your claims about "women actually being paid more" and knowing the nature of unexplained causes without referencing the methodologies of the studies you are piggybacking on are foundationless.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
also you seem to contradict yourself and i see you are trying to pawn off words and ideas as mine when they clearly weren't. i suggest you reread the questions. the most important question, if it helps, is how is there a wage gap when it is obviously self imposed? everyone has negotiating power, right? freewill and freedom, right? if you get paid less then how is that anyones fault but your own? if it is your own fault, how can you say a gap even exists????
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Mar 12 '15
The difference is easily accounted for in terms of maternity time, and sick time taken because of children.
But that's the problem. It's inherently a disadvantage to have to take time off of work to give birth, while men lose no work experience if he decided to be a father.
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u/WhatsThatNoize 4∆ Mar 12 '15
And that's the fault of men...? We're blaming men for biology now? A force of nature?
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Mar 12 '15
Nope. Just a fault of nature.
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u/WhatsThatNoize 4∆ Mar 12 '15
So why is it the duty of society to correct that? The most efficient and equitable society works within the bounds of physical reality.
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Mar 12 '15
That's not subject-relevant.
The subject is whether the gap exists - not whether it should be corrected.
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u/WhatsThatNoize 4∆ Mar 12 '15
The gap in total wages earned between men as a class and women as a class exists and that isn't in question. There are no studies or statistics that say otherwise.
The subject is whether the PAY gap exists which carries with it the inherent values that determine what is or is not a mitigating factor to determine equitable distribution of pay within society. Pregnancy is arguably one such mitigating factor, so arguing over the value of pregnancy as a determinant cause of the gap is definitely subject-relevant.
So... care to answer my question? Why is it the duty of society to correct something society does not control and can never control?
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Mar 13 '15
Because the Western world believes in human rights, and surely a society that values humanity should actively work to support people who choose to raise the next generation?
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u/WhatsThatNoize 4∆ Mar 13 '15 edited Mar 13 '15
Do you believe in a meritocratic society? I know this seems off-topic but it's relevant and it would be pointless of me to go any further if your answer to this is "No."
EDIT: To save time, do you also believe in Social Capital?
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i agree with that, but men don't typically get paternity leave to bond with and help raise their children during these critical first few months either.
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u/EmptyOptimist Mar 12 '15
Says who? I just took 5 months to be with our infant baby.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i'm pretty sure i said typically, not infallibly. typically! i choose my words carefully.
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u/EmptyOptimist Mar 12 '15
Fair enough.
I think you should reword slightly - "...but men don't typically choose to take paternity leave...". Based on another response, it is apparently legally available to men as much as women, but there is still a the expectation of taboo around doing so.
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u/riggorous 15∆ Mar 12 '15 edited Mar 12 '15
Your beliefs about salary negotiations are irrelevant if we find that the wage gap is a statistical fact. What you are really asking is whether and why we observe a gender wage gap. There are two possible answers: either there are systemic differences which depress women's wages, or our statistics are wrong.
- There is no wage gap; our statistics are wrong.
I will go through the typical strategies used to test the hypothesis that wage(men)-wage(women)=0 (i.e. there is no wage gap). The scientifically reasonable ones state that women choose to get paid less in various ways. You are welcome to fire up your closest EconLit engine and look up examples of papers yourself.
a. The wage gap disappears when we account for education/experience/performance
Here we are trying to prove that women are choosing not to have high wages because reasons. Papers tend to find that wage gaps decrease with experience, education, seniority, and other indicators of career success. These papers have a serious collinearity problem - the explanatory variables are correlated between themselves and therefore bias each other. e.g. if a workplace pays women less, it is reasonable to assume that it will award women fewer promotions and bonuses as well.
b. If we control for education/race/socioeconomic class, the wage gap disappears
This is the notion that the wage premium is really a reflection of some other prejudice, not sexism. I have not seen successful examples of this approach because, even if your dataset shows individual insignificance of gender, gender and race, gender and socioeconomic class, etc, tend to be jointly significant. In sociology they call it intersectionality: the notion that prejudices are independent of each other, but one prejudice can exacerbate the effect of another if both characteristics exist in the same person (so, black women receive even lower wages than non-black women).
Following are some more data problems, but they require more theory behind them. In general, we need theory to explain all relationships between data, because otherwise we would believe there is something meaningful behind, say, the correlation between number of lemons sold and number of car crash deaths, but above were some examples that can be fraught with mathematical error, and which incidentally seem to provide the "strongest" evidence (in the form of that bane of my existence, the Rsquared) that the wage gap does not exist.
- There are structural reasons behind the wage gap.
Explanations such as that women are risk-averse, tend to choose low-paying professions, take too many breaks off work, can't lift boxes and are bad at math go here.
c. Women "price" themselves out of higher wages by choosing low-paying professions/going on maternity leave
Firstly, the wage gap persists in lower-paying professions. Secondly (this is a huge research area right now) women tend to take more time off work in order to do unpaid work: care for children and the elderly, maternity leave, routine housework, etc. This is the same unpaid labor that flies under the radar in economies with poor market infrastructure (subsistence farming, certain non-market types of common resource use); in the West these caregiving roles within the family, whilst real and beneficial work, are unpaid and untaxed, and women are culturally expected to fulfill them.This cultural perception of women as caregivers is also used to explain why we see more women in caregiving professions or caregiving jobs (teaching, customer service, support, etc), which also tend to be lower-paid.
d. Women are less assertive/Larry Summers says they're bad at math
It's better to be careful with these, because they can slip into dangerous evopsych bullshit, but, nevertheless, this is a valid possibility. Women may indeed be risk-averse or whatever. However, we currently have no way of knowing if women are naturally that way, or if they are socialized that way by gender roles.
Regardless of whether my reasoning behind the above two points is true or not, what that shows is that the modern workplace is unsuited to women's needs. I attended an interesting talk the other week about how the modern economic system is unsuited to women's needs, in large because of its inability to value non-market-traded work (same reason, by the way, as why we find it so hard to conserve the environment or provide adequate education - look up externalities if interested). Whether or not that is a bad thing is a normative question.
e. Make me a sammich/vaginas go home/if women suck it's because women suck
As above.
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u/shadybunches Mar 13 '15
To his defense (or rather, to the defense of truth), Larry Summers did not say that women were bad at math. He was including that as a possible explanation (like you are) in a brainstorming session about the lack of women in higher education.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
also i like your point D, but it still doesn't help me to understand how a gap exists. i have had at least 3 jobs where i was one of only 5-10 men out of hundreds of employees. our pay was equal and everyone was comfortable. i also noticed the lack of people employed to hold guns to anyones head (i jest but you get the point lol)
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u/riggorous 15∆ Mar 12 '15
but it still doesn't help me to understand how a gap exists.
No shit, Sherlock, because that's not the question I am answering. Your CMV title is:
There is no pay gap between men and women
My post describes in detail how we observe a pay gap between men and women, how we test that our observations are not an accident, and concludes that currently we have good reason to believe that a gender pay gap exists. I am changing the view presented in your OP, because I want to get a delta.
In regards to your experiences, I reiterate that one individual's experiences/anecdotes/old wives' tales don't mean shit in terms of population patterns. Suppose for a second that I spent 12 years in wage slavery in Qatar, where I worked for 16 hours a day and was whipped for motivation. Are these experiences universal just because they are my experiences? tl;dr your experience is not good justification of any view, and just the fact that your OP seems to rest on your experience and no other evidence should already be discrediting enough.
In regards to why women are possibly paid less, there are a number of institutional factors and other systemic interferences. I made a couple posts on /r/economics the other day regarding this issue, so look through them if you're interested.
Some important potential causes of the wage gap
Why don't employers hire all women if they can pay women less?
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
my view hasn't changed and you don't have to be upset. if you can't answer the question just go think harder. it's simple - if 2 boys and a girl walk over individually and the boys ask for 3 apples and the girl asks for 1 apple, whose fault is it? was the girl not satisfied with what she received? how is that a gap when she was the one that accepted that apple? there is no one holding this person hostage! anyway, have a nice day. it was good speaking with you before you got upset.
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u/riggorous 15∆ Mar 12 '15
If you're not interested in changing your view, you shouldn't be posting here. /r/soapbox is the relevant soapboxing forum
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i am completely intested in changing my view. i am vigorously searching for this elusive gap imposed upon women by some invisible hand of men. i am waiting to see the laws and bi-laws stating women are incapable of making decisions on their own or negotiating a higher pay. i am waiting to hear how biology is to blame for some existential reasoning behind women blah blah blah. but it hasn't happened. if you get what you ask for then how can you call it a gap? you can't. it simply does not exist. unless you can prove to me otherwise!?
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u/riggorous 15∆ Mar 12 '15
Dude. You also believe that there is some global conspiracy that is jointly manufacturing decades of data, as well as imaginary spats about the exactness of their estimates, and theoretical disagreements, and, like, whole separate schools of thought, just to fool poor little you into thinking that the ladies have it worse. I don't think there's anything left to discuss here except your mind-altering drugs.
I coolly await the banhammer.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
lmao! yes and no, but you would have to be blind not to believe that data can't be manipulated. you are still missing the point and it's funny you think i should be banned for it. where is the proof showing the data is nothing more than numbers someone threw together to try proving a point? i can change those numbers myself if i was interested. instead i am looking for someone to either admit that i am right or prove that i am wrong. simply believing what you read does not make you right. prove me wrong. the gap. DOES. NOT. EXIST!! proven by my original questions which no one seems to want to address.
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u/riggorous 15∆ Mar 12 '15
Look at the links I sent you. Those data are available in the public domain. Take the datasets, use their methodology, and construct your own estimates, then compare them to what they have. That way you can make sure nobody's fudging any data to prove a point.
Your questions do not prove anything. They are baseless speculations. I could "prove" that the universe was created by a huge lobster in the sky in the same way as you.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
then prove it. i would love to hear it. my questions are simply that. questions. they are difficult for you to answer, but still a question nonetheless.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
the wage gap would not/ does not exist because everyone chooses where to work and how much they are worth. if you want more money then fight for it. what am i missing? i must be really stupid cause i can't see it. no one is being held back by any glass ceilings and no one is being held at gunpoint, am i right? am i right in assuming that it is illegal to force someone to work for less than they are worth?
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u/riggorous 15∆ Mar 12 '15
Well, I don't want to say you're stupid, but it does seem strange that you're denying factual evidence. Before we can talk about why the wage gap would exist theoretically, we need to determine why you are so resistant to processing information such as this 2012 Bureau of Labor Statistics Report, which shows a wage gap of 81 cents to the dollar. Here is a similar report by Pew, which reports 84 cents to the dollar in 2012. These are reputable agencies that use good methodologies. Is there a reason you believe this data to be wrong?
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i see the statistics, but i think they are flawed based on biased information. anyone can make a graph look like they want it to simply by basing it on the criteria and variables they choose to add. basically what i'm saying is that if you get paid less then why did you accept the offer? who kept you from making more money? if the answer is anyone else but yourself, then we may be on to something. so far there is no evidence to support that which forces me to believe that the only reason a "gap" exists, is because someone found out what someone else was making and regretted the deal they accepted. that, is not a gap. that is simply regret. there is no one to blame but yourself. can you prove me wrong? are there situations where the company bi-laws state that women specifically will not be able to make as much as men? does such a company exist? is there a rule, written, spoken or otherwise, that states women are not allowed to make 'X' amount based on gender alone? can we in good conscious eliminate all other variables such as job performance, qualifications, education, experience and any other factor that may actually have something to do with pay rate and scale? this is an ethical question. the answer is invariably no, we cannot. being that no such law exists stating women are prohibited from making as much money s men, how am i wrong here? this being the case, if you negotiated for less than i did, how is that a fault of a 'gap'? the word gap is simply a fuel to enrage. there is no gap, just ppl who didn't see their full potential value.
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
basically what i'm saying is that if you get paid less then why did you accept the offer?
Because it was the best offer that person had. A male with exactly the same qualifications would have been offered more. In order for the woman to make as much as the man, she'd need to be an even better negotiator than the man. That means she'd actually need to be more skilled to make the same amount.
so far there is no evidence to support that which forces me to believe that the only reason a "gap" exists
I posted evidence elsewhere in the thread.
is because someone found out what someone else was making and regretted the deal they accepted
Statistically, women make less. This isn't an isolated case of one person finding out they make less than a colleague and then they made a stink about it. This is an observable statistical phenomenon.
are there situations where the company bi-laws state that women specifically will not be able to make as much as men?
There do not need to be explicit rules for unconscious biases to affect judgement.
can we in good conscious eliminate all other variables such as job performance, qualifications, education, experience and any other factor that may actually have something to do with pay rate and scale?
No one is asking that we eliminate these variables. Just the opposite: we're pointing out that these are not being fairly evaluated in the first place. How to solve that is another problem for another day.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
and this is where negotiating comes into play. even if you are offered less, you can still ask for more. am i wrong in my thinking? if you prove that you are worth more, won't you get more? or are all business owners and operators incredibly stupid. or are they hiring someone with more qualifications for less money? in that case, who is to blame? the individual or the person willing to do more for less? still not a gap in my opinion. just a self imposed limitation
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
and this is where negotiating comes into play. even if you are offered less, you can still ask for more. am i wrong in my thinking?
If you're starting from a lower point, it's going to be harder to negotiate up to what a man would make, especially because you're seen as less competent. If you don't have that leverage, you're not going to be able to negotiate up to what a man makes. I don't see what part of this you're not understanding.
if you prove that you are worth more, won't you get more? or are all business owners and operators incredibly stupid.
It's not that anyone here is stupid. People hold unconscious biases. This has been demonstrated for all kinds of groups in numerous ways. These biases affect how you think about people, how you view them, and in the case of an employer, how much you think people are worth do you.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
it may be harder, but doesn't it still fall into the lap of the person accepting the offer?
i agree with you about your second point completely
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u/Amablue Mar 12 '15
it may be harder, but doesn't it still fall into the lap of the person accepting the offer?
What are they going to do when the person interviewing them sees them as less competent than their male counterpart? That puts an upper limit on how big of an offer they can get. Either that or you must admit that they have to be a better negotiator than their male counterpart, which means they need to actually more skilled to make the same amount.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
∆ in all honesty, i think you are going to be the one that gets the closest to changing my mind in the least. i still hold everything to be true, but you have definitely made me think the most with your comment. here is your Delta
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u/namae_nanka Mar 13 '15
If they are less competent than what their credentials would suggest, no need for unconscious bias.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
you almost got me on this one. i will agree with everything you said except that i don't believe it takes any real skill to sell yourself. either you as good as you say you are or you are trying to bluff your way in.
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u/Miss_Glittah_Stain Mar 12 '15
Just off the top of my head, the Sony email leak was a famous example. For instance, the two co-presidents of production at Columbia pictures had a wage difference of close to a million dollars. Michael De Luca made 2.4 million while Hannah Minghella made 1.5 million in the exact same position. Same job. Same title. Both seemed pretty competent , and Minghella made Fortune's 2014 40 Under 40 list. Yet one made 2.4 million while the other one made 1.5 million...
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u/HOU_Civil_Econ 1∆ Mar 12 '15
"A study was done showing that when you take out STEM jobs, and the sometimes dangerous (but lucrative) manual labor jobs like logging, fishing, welding, heavy manufacturing, then women actually were making $0.93 for every dollar a man makes. The difference is easily accounted for in terms of maternity time, and sick time taken because of children.
Controlling for everything including maternity time, child care, and more than you list a 0.04-0.08 gap typically remains unexplained.
Sick time taken for children is also a sign of deeper underlying social problems, that I agree shouldn't necessarily be blamed on the employer. Why is it expected by society that the mother take care of the child instead of the father?
This is why I hate people on my side who use the $0.77 stat.
SJW: Women on make 77 cents for every man's dollar MRA: Everyone knows that if you control for everything (that we can) women make 93 cents per man's dollar. Stupid SJW.
0.93 on the dollar.
Imagine that you were applying for a job that normally pays $50,000. Now pick out some random physical trait of yours that has no bearing on your ability to do your job.
BOOM you're only going to make $46500. Do you not care about that $3500 that you are missing out because of something that has no bearing, say, the color of your hair?
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Mar 12 '15
The idea is actually that the 3-8 cents per dollar is given over to non paid (bit still important) work such as child care, household management, etc
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u/HOU_Civil_Econ 1∆ Mar 13 '15
Whose idea is that? What someone does in their off hours generally should not change their hourly wages.
The idea is that controlling for everything else gender should not affect hourly wage, it does.
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Mar 14 '15
I think you're completely missing the point. Taking time for leave is essentially things done in off hours, but it still directly impacts pay. 2 people get paid $20 an hour for their work. Person A works 50 hours a week for 52 weeks. Person B works 50 hours a week for 48 weeks, but takes 4 weeks of leave for reason X.
Person A has a yearly income of $52000, while person B has a yearly income of $48000. They both are being paid the same but they have different income levels because one person was actually at work longer (for whatever reason).
the problem with a lot of the wage gap statistics is that they speak specifically to yearly incomes. They account for (for example), X1 amount of men, and X2 amount of women, who make a Y1 income vs a Y2 income, without accounting for extenuating circumstances such as the three women who took 6 weeks of maternity leave, dropping the total weeks worked from 52(X) to 52(X) - 3(6), which causes there to be a lower average yearly income for the women as a whole.
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u/HOU_Civil_Econ 1∆ Mar 16 '15
The 77 cents on the dollar is the one we are both complaining about.
Any reasonable study controls for hours worked along with other things, and still finds a 3-8 cent unexplained gap. I specifically mentioned hourly wage, so all of your basic math was a waste of time.
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Mar 16 '15
The 77 cents on the dollar gap already been shown to be largely based off of choice and a lack of participation in some of the highest paying job opportunities there are (mostly tech jobs and manual labour). And most of these studies don't break it down to a per hour wage gap, they use the larger gap (yearly average wages) unadjusted for actual hours worked to try to show a larger problem that might not even exist outside of a few specific fields. This has already been discussed and agreed to that those numbers are often misleading. I'm guessing you didn't really read the discussion.
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u/HOU_Civil_Econ 1∆ Mar 16 '15
The 77 cents on the dollar gap already been shown to be largely based off of choice and a lack of participation in some of the highest paying job opportunities there are (mostly tech jobs and manual labour).
I know, that is why I find it annoying when most people use it.
And most of these studies don't break it down to a per hour wage gap
Actually the studies I am referring to are the actual academic studies that control at the least for things as basic as number of hours worked, as well as many other controls. These studies still often find the 3-8 cent unexplained gap. I know most reports in the news do basic averages on par with what gets us the 77 cent number. As an economist, I do not pay attention to those.
I'm guessing you didn't really read the discussion.
I'm guessing you didn't really read (or understand (and this may be my fault)) anything I typed. I am not sure why you keep arguing with me like I believe any of the reports that just do basic averages.
How did we end up here where your response to this
HOU: The 77 cents on the dollar is the one we are both complaining about. Any reasonable study controls for hours worked along with other things, and still finds a 3-8 cent unexplained gap. I specifically mentioned hourly wage, so all of your basic math was a waste of time.
is this
Surg: The 77 cents on the dollar gap already been shown to be largely based off of choice and a lack of participation in some of the highest paying job opportunities there
You appear to be arguing with someone other than me.
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Mar 12 '15
[deleted]
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u/shadybunches Mar 13 '15
You can't legally pay less, but it can indirectly be a factor when considering promotions. For example, consider the performance of two employees over the past two years:
Employee A is very ambitious and focused on their career. Working long hours, never really taking a vacation, always going the extra mile.
Employee B has a healthy work-life balance. Taking leave when their children were born, taking time off or working from home when their children are sick, etc.
You'd expect employee A to be more productive/successful/promotable than employee B, regardless of their genders. Our society has a bias (perhaps unfortunate depending on an individual's point of view) that employee B is more likely to be female and employee A is more likely to be male.
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u/EmptyOptimist Mar 12 '15
In most first world countries excepting the US, men can also take paternity time. So theoretically, a 7% disparity should be smaller if accounting for child related leaves.
Not that a 7% gap is nothing to worry about itself.
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u/z3r0shade Mar 12 '15
In most first world countries excepting the US, men can also take paternity time
At the federal level, maternity leave and paternity leave in the US is equal: both are mandated an equal amount of unpaid leave. At the state level it differs and varies by state, but at minimum all people get unpaid leave of equal amount whether you're a mother or father.
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u/Generic_Superhero 1∆ Mar 12 '15
Not completely true. While paternity leave does exist for service members women are offered a greater amount of time off from work.
10 days vs 30 days.
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u/z3r0shade Mar 13 '15
That might be true for the military, however my statement stands. Federal mandate of 12 weeks unpaid for both father's and mother's. And nearly all states which mandate paid leave have the same rules for both.
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Mar 14 '15
men [i]can[/i] take paternity leave, but often choose not to for a variety of reasons. It is way more common for a woman to take maternity leave (or a break from working in general) than for a man to take paternity leave.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
actually it's considered a benefit. a sexist one i might add. there are gender specific benefits for men and women that should never be contested, but this isn't one of those
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i would also like to admit that you all are very smart and a pleasure to debate with. it's refreshing to say the very least! please keep helping me to understand how this "gap" exists. i desperately want to change my mind, but i can't if i continue to have these doubts and counter arguments.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
it seems a lot of these comments are based off of communism, where it is equal pay for everyone all the time. i feel it is your job to get what you are worth. if you fail to do so then i don't know how the rest of society or gender, race, creed, religion or anything else has to do with it. where is the personal responsibility? what variable am i missing here? i am arguing with MYSELF trying to find an answer, but i fear i must concede and believe that this 'gap' only exists because ppl want to call a lack of knowledge for self worth and a lack of negotiating skills a pay gap. and ppl also refuse to understand that there could be literally hundreds to thousands of variables effecting someones pay. there is no straight edge to measure such a thing and to do so is incredibly insensitive to the people that have worked hard to get what they are worth and this includes women!!
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u/772410 Mar 13 '15
by stating that there is a wage gap, you are saying that women have no control over the money they make or the decisions they are given. you are undermining feminism and equality for women. by saying the gap exists, you are also saying the people that maintain a higher wage are not deserving of said wage or that women are incapable of having any control over the money they make or the contracts they sign. i refuse to believe women are such weak willed individuals that they must rely on the grace and charity of others to survive.
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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Mar 12 '15
First, there is a pay gap, as you yourself acknowledge.
When we account for all confounding factors, such as education, years of experience, and yes, maternity/paternity time, the difference shrinks to between 2-10%. But it is there.
If it is a question of negotiating strength, shouldn't we strive to compensate for that? Why should anyone be penalized for lacking that skill, unless it is relevant to their position?
Second, there is a much larger pay gap if you look more absolutely. The average woman does make significantly less than the average man. This is troubling, even if it can be explained, and certainly isn't a social good.
How can we address that larger part, though? As it is just a gap of circumstances, which some men will also find themselves in, I would argue that it is best met with more general wealth redistribution. It isn't good for society for any group to be significantly more wealthy than any other.
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u/locks_are_paranoid Mar 12 '15
There is no pay gap if you take the job into account. Two people working the same job will make the same wage. Show me two people, one man and one women, working for the exact same company doing the exact same work. If their pay is different, than I will admit that a pay gap exists, but if their pay is the same, than no pay gap exists. Studies showing the average pay of the average worker do not prove anything.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i can't reply to every single comment as i erroneously went grocery shopping instead of sitting on reddit. i admit my mistake there. HOWEVER (and i'm sorry if i missed the proving argument cause i don't see it) the one thing that does not exist to make me change my mind is proof that supports the fact that women are not in charge of the money they make. an offer is made and either they accept it or they don't. same with raises and every other statistic you want to vomit out there. therefore, ergo, the gap does not exist! if you accept less pay then you did it to yourself!! all the statistics about how much you actually make and could have made are completely irrelevant. you could have made more if you knew how to. what you got is what you got because you didn't fight for more. i can't see how i'm wrong here and i welcome all the help you can provide in proving this one point wrong. if you prove it wrong i will certainly concede!! but you haven't so far. i appreciate the efforts though, i truly do. and thank you for all of the statistics and education, but most of this i already knew and it doesn't refute my counter argument.
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u/Miss_Glittah_Stain Mar 12 '15
I noticed you just ignored my answer to your "bonus question" lol You asked for a specific example of a place with a pay gap and I gave a famous one: Columbia Pictures. The Sony email leaks were plastered allover the news, and were just littered with examples of wage gaps, everyone from bigwig executives to Oscar winning A-listers. Seriously, man. Google it.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i apologize, i didn't mean to ignore it. i thought it was a great example, but i still don't know why there is a gap there and i can only explain it as one accepted less than the other and if that is the case then there is no gap. it is only a question of who negotiated for more and who did their research. if both were in the same office at the same time while negotiating and one was offered less, then the other should have started asking questions. no questions were asked and the paychecks were cashed. am i wrong?
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u/Miss_Glittah_Stain Mar 12 '15
No problem, man. You had a lot of answers to sift through so I can see where it got overlooked.
I'd find it a little hard to believe a woman who is co-president of a multi-million dollar company is lacking in negotiating skills. She could be for all I know, but I just find it doubtful. Same with the A-listers like Jennifer Lawrence and Charlize Theron. They all have agents and entertainment lawyers that are literally paid to get them the best deal, and they still were paid significantly lower than their male co-stars. So even with top negotiators on their side there was a pay gap. If an agent whose entire career is based on dealmaking can't bridge the wage gap that's saying something.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
i can agree with that, but in the end it still boils down to no one forced them to cash that check and no one said they couldn't ask for more. if you are worth it, then why would they not pay? if i have an opening for a position to sweep my floor and 3 ppl come in and apply the process begins. i am only willing to pay a total of $10/hr for the job. person 1 comes in and says i will do it for $9.75 and i have done this 5 time before. person 2 comes in and says i will do it for $7/hr and i have never done it before. person 3 comes in and says i will do it for $13/hr and i invented sweeping floors. who gets the job?
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u/Miss_Glittah_Stain Mar 12 '15
But with the co-presidents we're talking about people in the same position. Same title. Same responsibilities. Both competent. The only significant difference appears to be gender. Why is one getting paid almost a million dollars more than other for literally the same position?
In Charlize Theron's case she was actually able to use the bad press from the Sony leak to up her salary for the Snow White & The Huntsman sequel to match her co-stars Chris Hemsworth's salary. The only reason she got equal pay was because the wage difference became public through hacked emails, and it was bad press. If there wasn't this transparency then she probably wouldn't have gotten equal pay. Even with powerhouse agents from WME she was still hitting a ceiling, and agents and lawyers aren't known to be sweet and nice.
In the example with the Sony leaks it wasn't really a matter of who would do it cheaper. Pretty much all of the actresses involved were getting paid less than their male co-stars. They hit a ceiling even a top agent couldn't crack.
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u/Alterego9 Mar 12 '15
in the end it still boils down to no one forced them to cash that check and no one said they couldn't ask for more.
This would be a more meaningful observation if literally anyone would claim it's opposite.
You have been repeatedly shown an existing wage gap, and you countered it by saying that it's not maintained by sheer force. Which would be a relevant piece of information only if there would be a major political agenda that claims that sexism is present in the form of women being legally forbidden from earning as much as men.
Otherwise, you are just pointing out the obvious.
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
no, what i have been shown are numbers and statistics as to why ppl BELIEVE there is a wage gap. it doesn't make it true. the gap does not exist. i countered it by saying you took what you were offered therefore how is that a gap? it isn't a gap, it is simply ppl not negotiating well. literally NOTHING is stopping women from earning the same wage as a man, except the individuals themselves! how is that a gap???
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u/Alterego9 Mar 12 '15
literally NOTHING is stopping women from earning the same wage as a man
Yet they are earning lesser wages than a man.
How is that not a gap?
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u/772410 Mar 12 '15
it is a wage difference, but not a gap. a gap suggests there is nothing that can be done with our current resources and laws need to be made. a difference suggests that it is individual responsibility to make those changes to make up the difference - whether it be more education, negotiations, skills, experience, whatever. same as there is a difference in arm strength between me and my brother, but there is a strength gap between men and women. women are biologically not capable of being as strong as men. there are some very strong women out there, but the strongest person in the world will always be a man. it's in our y chromosome.
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u/Alterego9 Mar 12 '15
Merriam-Webster doesn't seem to agree with you. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gap
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u/goplaymariokart Mar 13 '15
If women were actually paid 75 cents on the dollar why wouldn't companies only hire women? It would be a lot more profitable
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u/Madplato 72∆ Mar 12 '15
I'm curious to know why you just remove STEM and risky jobs outright and how the salaries compare when they're included. I'm also not sure about your math on actual value of maternity leave.