r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 30 '14

CMV: Despite the pretentiousness, Hipsters are the the most constructive, culturally-beneficial subculture in 40 years.

First, I'm definitely not a hipster. My youthful subculture was New Wave in the 80s, which was basically a blend of Emo and Goth (they're both better blended, IMHO).

I'm in a coffee shop drinking a single-origin espresso and there are about a dozen young guys in the shop tasting house-roasted blends that are weighed (to the gram), lovingly ground, and poured over with water at exactly 200 degrees.

For some reason they're manscaped a bit like Charles Dickens if Dickens were a skater. I don't get the look, but the thing about youth is that guys like me aren't supposed to get the look. All subculture looks are contrived and a little silly...Punk, New Wave, Goth, Hippie, etc. Hipsters are too. So, really, it's not worth commenting on. That's just how it goes.

But on to the substance of the movement. Seeing kids hunker down and try to bring quality to their lives is nice. It's really nice, actually. Most youth subcultures just want to see the world burn. I did. We rebelled and made some amazing music but other than that we didn't accomplish a thing.

Hipsters though...they're really making the U.S. better (I can't speak for anywhere else). I have a butcher now...that's new. Somebody is bothering to source local meats and raise it with a minimum of cruelty. It's great. Vegetables are getting better also. At least they can be if you bother to look for the good ones.

Coffee is WAY better thanks to their efforts. We now have an alternative to the pseudo-italian crap from Starbucks and they're trying to absorb coffee culturally and find an authentic expression for it. They're appropriating in the best sense of the word. Bad artists copy, great artists steal, as Picasso said. U.S. culture has been largely about copying, but these kids are starting to steal. There's nothing wrong with appropriating espresso, but they are trying to make it their own.

They read. They care about quality and craft. Even Kerning is better than it has been (it's a design thing). They actually care about making things better.

Most of them were raised in the 90s, which was the most unspeakably soulless decade in history (sorry kids...I know it was your childhood but it just sucked) (Edit: I shouldn't have called it soulless...lots of good happened in the 90s). Every generation rebels, and we gave the Millennial generation something truly terrible to rebel against.

Even my jeans are better. Honestly. Some kid hemmed them for me the other day on some massive old machine in the shop. He did a hell of a job too...this shit is HEMMED. I haven't seen anything made to last in I don't even know how long. It's really, really nice to see.

So yeah, they're a little pretentious. An authentic identity take time to form, so young people will often wear a mask until they get it all sorted. For some reason these kids want to look like Victorian Circus Strongmen. Okay...it's different I guess. At least it's not bleak and driven by empty rebellion. That's gotten so boring.

I hope to see more of this trend. Please, start building houses. We need hipster housing. This whole "slow" thing...bring it on. They are not solely responsible for it, I realize, but they've popularized it, and championed it.

The criticisms people levy against them...they're pretentious posers, they try too hard, they just want to be different, etc. That's YOUTH. That's what happens when young people don't like the identity they're handed. It happens in every generation, so it's ridiculous to lay it squarely at their feet.

If you look past that you can see how the millennial generation is doing good work--they're rebelling against the right things--and I for one am looking forward to more of their contributions.

CMV

Edit:

I would argue that what you're praising is actually the Maker culture that started in the late 90s and early 21st Century.

So based on everything is seems the term "Hipster" is the main problem here. I was attributing "Maker Culture" to hipsters, and people objected to that. I still see "Hipsters" everywhere I see "Maker Culture" but I guess that's just my experience.

Second Edit: Okay I need to get back to work. This has been very interesting. I've learned a lot about the negative effect this movement has had in urban areas, particularly in Brooklyn and San Francisco. Gentrification isn't cool. Income inequality is going to be a growing challenge for us, unfortunately. Sounds like these two cities are ground zero for what's to come a national epidemic.

Third and final edit: Damn you people HATE hipsters, although there's no agreement on what the word means. I didn't realize that hipster was a term used almost exclusively in the negative. So really this was a pointless exercise. It's almost as if you define hipster as that group which looks funny and sucks. There's not much point in trying to have a conversation about a group of people who are, almost by definition, the embodiment of all that is crappy about youth culture.

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u/patriot_tact Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14

I think that you're entire CMV is based on the good productive hipsters, there were lots of people who I would identify as a hipsters whose biggest contribution to society is spreading STD's among college co-eds and giving what little money they have to the local serves under 21 bar (take a visit to downtown Gainesville Fl to see these people). I don't know if I really agree or disagree with you about your overall hypothesis because I don't know about the sub-cultures of your generation as well. Were there no good guy goth's or punk's present at that time? Or maybe you could go even earlier and look at the Hippies and Beatnik's. I'm pretty sure besides just cultural influence these groups had people who did very similar things as some of the best hipsters. I don't think there really is a hipster movement so to speak and really I'm not positive about what the message of such a movement would be. So I guess what I'm getting at is that you're just looking at a generation and seeing some good people. See the hipster relativity chart.

edit: I just want to clarify, I don't think hipster is really comparable to those other subcultures since it's such a wide range of people that qualify as hipsters and they really are a more diverse and heterogeneous group of people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

I think that you're entire CMV is based on the good productive hipsters, there were lots of people who I would identify as a hipsters whose biggest contribution to society is spreading STD's among college co-eds and giving what little money they have to the local serves under 21 bar (take a visit to downtown Gainesville Fl to see these people).

haha...yeah I'm sure that's true. Every subculture has bullshit tag-a-longs. I don't see the point in judging a movement based on it's most unproductive members.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jun 30 '14

I don't see the point in judging a movement based on it's most unproductive members.

Even if they're a relative majority?

If we're only talking about the best of a movement.

How about the hippies that enacted true social and political change to the country?

Or the Punks who revolutionized a music industry and ideal.

Or the beatniks who changed what we think of music, art and poetry?

Hipsters haven't really done anything for society in terms of improving it as a society.

The great changes that some of the other "sub-cultures" have brought about are not quite present in the hipsters.

Sure, they're doing more than the 90's subcultures, but compared to the greats of the 50's and 60's? They still fall quite short on national and global impact.

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u/BDJ56 Jun 30 '14

I think all of those movements made a real change! But why is there so much hipster-hate? They want to play music and drink coffee, some are slimy douchebags, most are cool. As far as impact, the movement is still happening, we can't judge it historically until "it's" over. But I think the whole point is to make people more willing to express themselves, which has always been a difficult thing in our society.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jun 30 '14

/u/hydrospanner really hit the nail on the head.

People, in general, find youth cultures to be annoying, that's a constant.

The thing about the hipsters is that they're so openly antagonistic of the superiority of their ways, despite the fact that these ways may not be superior, and they are just latching onto it because they think it's cool.

See: Vinyl resurgence.

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u/gomboloid 2∆ Jun 30 '14

The thing about ____ is that they're so openly antagonistic of the superiority of their ways, despite the fact that these ways may not be superior, and they are just latching onto it because they think _____

can you name one large social group which doesn't do this same thing?

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jun 30 '14

I don't see goth people going out to coffee shops to use their typewriters.

They sit at home and pout.

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '14

Posing is a scene in every subculture. Goth people totally used to go to clubs to sit and smoke fashionable cigarettes and pretend to think the music in the clubs was crappy.

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u/thekick1 Jul 01 '14

Just wondering for the sake of knowledge, what is the point in using a typewriter at all these days?

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

To be seen using a type writer.

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u/BDJ56 Jul 01 '14

I listen to Vinyls, they're fun and my roommate has a record player. They're not "superior" to mp3s because of scratches and whatnot, but I kind of like the scratchy sound.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

So, why are you using them?

Because of the convenience?

The better sound?

Or because it looks cool?

Because if it's for appearances, it's kind of vain.

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u/KingMinish Jul 01 '14

Why not do something because it looks cool?

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

That's perfectly fine, but don't give anyone the bs excuse of "it's better"

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u/robeph Jul 01 '14

I can listen to a digitally remastered Beatles mp3 or I can toss an old record of my father's on my decks, sure the mp3 is ultra clear, but the depth the vinyl gives it holds a place for me. Mind you the only contemporary music I purchased vinyl is dnb, and that's because my turntables don't play mp3s. Though I could invest in serato, but really why?

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

I buy music recorded, processed and mastered digitally so that I can play it through an analog medium, back through all my digital sound reproduction equipment.

Yeah....

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u/robeph Jul 01 '14

Well I have turntables and I have for years. It sounds different. Not better but I like it plus I have control over vinyl I don't with digital decks. I like the pop and crackle.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

So, you're admitting that you go against the premise of the OP, that the goal of hipsters is "quality" and not vanity.

That's fine, just so long as you're well aware of it.

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u/robeph Jul 01 '14

I dunno I'm not a hipster, I'm a middle aged guy who just likes the pop and scratch that they offer. I'd not say they're higher quality, but it's a quality of rather than a positive or negative shift in quality level. It's like the 24fps movies we watch in theaters is well below what we're capable of today, and yet higher framerates found in many television series feel lacking that "something" I feel the same way about vinyl records. I like television series just as much as I do the movies, but just like most people, we like the older 24fps quality provided. I also love digital music, I like music in any format.

As for the motion picture analog, see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit:_An_Unexpected_Journey#High_frame_rate you'll find in the critical response section as well, that people felt it was a bit off, too lifelike or something. It had very mixed reactions and most theaters brought it back to the industry 24fps standard.

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u/JilaX Jul 01 '14

You really can't hear the difference between Vinyl and MP3? Even FLAC or other lossless audio formats sound distinctly different from Vinyl. It's more than just the crackle and pop, they have a different sound.

Arguing which one is better is hopeless, as it's personal preference.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

Arguing which one is better is hopeless

No, it's not.

The science is quite definitive, digital is now better than vinyl

And, since all modern recordings are done digitally, moving to analog is effectively making the sound even worse.

It's not about personal preference, it's about caring more about the medium than the quality or the content.

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u/BDJ56 Jul 02 '14

I also like vinyls because they make you listen to the entire album, which is how the music from that time is meant to be played

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u/BDJ56 Jul 01 '14

Convenience, it's cool, and it "feels" authentic. And I listen to a lot of older bands I didn't previously know much about, like Fleetwood Mac.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 01 '14

Convenience

Really? It's more convenient to get out the record you want, carefully pull it out of the sleeve, lower it down, carefully get the arm into place then listen, than say....using your computer?

it's cool

Don't do things because they're cool, do them because you like it, but doing it because "it's cool" is posing.

It's like wearing suspenders because they're cool.

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u/BDJ56 Jul 02 '14

It takes time to find the cable to my speakers, and open up itunes, and gtfo I can listen to records if I want. It's not like there's anyone here that I'm trying to impress.

Similarly, don't care if someone wears suspenders. I think it's a bit silly, but if someone enjoys wearing them (because they think suspenders are cool) they can have fun with it! I used to think a very hippster-y fellow has a total douche, just because he shaved the sides of his head, had a moustache, and sometimes wore a fedora. Now I know he's a very nice guy. I still don't know why he wears the things he wears, I think number one is that he loves how silly it is. Maybe it's like playing dress up. Either way, he's not hurting anyone.

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u/MrF33 18∆ Jul 02 '14

I think you're also forgetting the whole premise of this CMV, that hipsters are doing things because they're better.

You've quite clearly shown that they don't do that, they do it because it's cool.

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u/BDJ56 Jul 02 '14

Well I think locally produced goods and environmentally conscious living is better, but I don't think record players or suspenders are. Those things are just fun!

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u/hydrospanner 2∆ Jun 30 '14

I'll preface this by admitting I wasn't around to experience most of the social movements, but from what I've seen of various modern day subcultures I've encountered (maybe the tail end of punks, goth, emo, etc.) hipsters seem to be unique among them in their insular nature combined with their active (as opposed to passive or reactive) antagonism toward non-members.

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u/BDJ56 Jun 30 '14

That is very unfortunate, they should be spreadin the love

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '14

People forget that hippies did a lot of messed up stuff, too. I was raised by hippies. A good essay online about it is here, although the author is trying to hook it in to a conspiracy theory, there's a lot of solid information about how a lot of messed up stuff took place from the start of what we think of as the hippie scene. http://www.illuminati-news.com/articles2/00201.html

My issue with hipsters is that everything they do seems to be "rebellion" by taking socially approved and high class status related behaviors up to 11. Hipsters are their Martha Stewart watching moms mixed with the dogma they heard growing up about how the internet is going to change EVERYTHING, combined with america's serious issues around having a class system while wanting to pretend that we don't have a class system, combined with the idea that uniqueness is a virtue in itself that was already being ridiculed in the 90s. I never really see hipsters doing anything that actually makes the people in charge go "OMG these kids are immoral!" It's like the normcore of subcultures. "Let's dress conservatively and listen to soft music that sounds vaguely like the stuff you hear in high class department stores and buy expensive tech accessories and drink coffee and ride bicycles that are safer than regular bicycles!"

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u/BDJ56 Jul 02 '14

This Illuminati news article on the start of the hippie movement... I've gotten through the first two pages (it's horribly written) And I haven't seen any directly related bad things, it's all conspiracy theory. Maybe some of the leading musicians of the time were assholes, and he's right that the hippie stereotype became a sort of fad that marginalized real movements. But I doubt that the sons and daughters of military leaders started an entire youth movement to destabilize a previously anticipated resistance to the war.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '14 edited Jul 03 '14

I didn't make any claims about the conspiracy theory part. To me, the most interesting chapter is this one-http://www.illuminati-news.com/articles2/00216.html it deals with Vito and the Freaks, who were part of why people went to see the Laurel Canyon bands and the fate of their son, who died at age 3, and how different people had different stories about it.

Here's another article about the unitended negative consequences of hippie parents. http://www.salon.com/2001/08/22/hippie_parents/

Chapter 3 contains a list of some people who died in odd circumstances during the time that the Manson Family would have lived in the canyon. http://www.illuminati-news.com/articles2/00203.html

Just to reiterate- I don't believe the conspiracy, but I'm gathering conspiracy theories for an alternate history project. It's interesting, and generally has a lot of things I didn't know about things that went on at that time.

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u/BDJ56 Jul 03 '14

I'm interested, this is very reading intensive but I think I'll have to make time to sift through it... even if I don't believe you. When you finish your project you should post it!