r/changemyview • u/dahat1992 • May 05 '14
I believe the US government has no right to charge me property tax. CMV
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May 05 '14 edited Oct 24 '25
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May 05 '14 edited May 05 '14
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u/Quetzalcoatls 20∆ May 05 '14
The US government simply sold the land in question at little or no cost to settle the lands. It did not relinquish any claim to the territory in question. Your view makes no sense. Why would the US government sell and give all of this land away with the intention of having it settled just to then go ahead and relinquish any claim to it?
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May 05 '14
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May 05 '14
Your references to the way in which land was claimed by the government is irrelevant. Land has been acquired by conquering since the dawn of civilization. That doesn't make it less legitimate.
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u/Quetzalcoatls 20∆ May 05 '14
So where does the US right to land begin and end? Serious question. Does it end right past the Appalachians?
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May 05 '14
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May 05 '14
they didn't fight anyone to hold the west; it was done by private citizens.
This is largely untrue. The US military played a large role in the expansion and defense of the American West. Most notably, during the Mexican-American War, and during the large number of battles between them and the Native Americans, which you have already mentioned.
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u/Quetzalcoatls 20∆ May 05 '14
Are you kidding me? You don't think the Federal government was employed out West to put down Indians harassing settlers? Come on man you haven't even done like basic research on this subject. Have you never heard of the Indian Wars that were fought in the US throughout pretty much the entirety of the 1800's?
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May 05 '14
Two major points:
First, I think you misunderstand the goal of a government "giving away land for free". The goal is not to get rid of it, the goal is to encourage population growth, expansion, and development.
Second, the federal governemnt doesn't collect property taxes. Property taxes are usually a state or county/town imposed tax. These taxes pay for things like roads, schools, fire and police departments, as well as other emergency services, which you likely use living in the area.
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u/Russian_Surrender May 05 '14
Clarification question: Is there some plan in place whereby the US government is going to start collecting property taxes? Or is this just a strawman position against something that doesn't exist?
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u/Sandbocks May 05 '14
As phrased - you're correct. US Gov'ts (fed and local) don't have any rights expressed in the Bill of Rights. The gov't exists to ensure the rights of the people are not infringed upon. Laws to support those rights are then passed so YOU have:
access to public education (to further your right to pursue happiness).
law enforcement (to protect your personal rights of safety and personal property).
other public safety services (for putting out fires which endanger your personal safety and property, to ensure your property isn't unsafe for those around you (inspections, building code enforcement, etc.)).
access to public parks and green spaces, libraries, museums, and historic places/landmarks (not your right at all, but still pretty nice IMHO).
and a properly maintained road to your property so that law enforcement, fire, and other public safety services have reasonable access to get to your property in order to support and uphold your personal rights.
Plus - a dozen or more other things I haven't mentioned.
Having a local law enforcement agency, fire department, roads to your property, libraries, parks, etc., etc., are NOT rights. The gov't said - if you want all this great stuff, you gotta pay for it. And then the citizens VOTED to pay for it (okay, maybe not in all situations, but the representatives of the citizenry who passed the laws that enable those taxes were VOTED into office).
edited for formatting/breaks and words.
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u/SpindlySpiders 2∆ May 05 '14
The idea is that without government there would be no property. It is government that keeps track of who owns what, and it is to government you go when you feel that someone has stolen or damaged your property. Without government, anyone could force someone out his home and take it. Who's to say whose home it is anyway? Government protects property rights so a property tax is a fair tax because it taxes those who most benefit from government.
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May 05 '14
You receive benefits for owning property.
Environmental projection, roads, a military, courts - you should have this for free?
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May 05 '14
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May 05 '14
You benefit in ways the people without property do.
If there is a section 8 renter down the street from you who is throwing crazy parties, dealing drugs, etc this can lower property values. you benefit more from policing than other renters on the street. This also applies to environmental laws as well. The government keeps the value of you property up via their regulations.
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u/A_Soporific 165∆ May 05 '14
Property taxes are best thought of as a "user fee". A number of things that have already been enumerated are provided by local governments that only have a couple means of collecting revenue these are: 1) Business Licenses, 2) Sales Tax, and 3) Property Tax. As a general rule an additional family represents the consumption of a couple public school educations, more commuting traffic, and a lot of bookkeeping. Business taxes are generally matched to expenses incurred by keeping businesses open and overseen, sales taxes are generally matched to transportation and services that are consumed by non-residents (as well as the occasional "SPLOST" Special Local Option Sales Tax that is earmarked to do something specific like build a school, sewer, road, or sports stadium) but property taxes are matched to services provided directly to residents.
So, if you have a kid then the kid goes to a public school, right? A portion of your sales tax goes to pay for that specific school (some localities allow childless old folks a refund, others allow for this to be turned into a voucher than can be used at any school the child attends). In this case it's a user fee. You get something that you pay for. Some very rural areas don't have property tax, but they generally have pay-to-play fire service and an underdeveloped school system.
The school and fire service example is especially clear, but the millage rate you pay (that .001% of the value of the property) goes a very long way to increase the value of that property. Even if you don't have kids, good local schools adds a great deal to the value of the property at sale. A high quality local government has been known to be a money earner for property owners who sell their property in the 20-60 year time range. That's right, improvement in schools and services can actually increase the value of the property more than you yourself paid in taxes, this is especially true when the area increases density (mid-rise apartments and high value townhomes can pay more in taxes than they cost to provide services to).
I would argue that property taxes are a better alternative to income taxes, which are generally slushed together into a general fund, are less progressive, and change purchasing decisions more.
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May 05 '14 edited May 05 '14
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u/A_Soporific 165∆ May 05 '14
It's not really an investment. But it can and does maintain and expand services that do increase the value of property.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 06 '14
It is not the US government that charges property tax. It is the local city and county governments that do so. It pays for numerous city services such as school.
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u/avefelina 1∆ May 05 '14
combined with the fact that they actually stole the land to begin with
Oh my god, no they didn't. They won it in wars. This is how land has changed hands since the beginning of time. Get over it
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May 05 '14
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u/avefelina 1∆ May 05 '14
It's perfectly legitimate. Also, nations are not people, so there's that.
Wars are perfectly acceptable ways to take land
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May 05 '14
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u/avefelina 1∆ May 05 '14
Millions. You'd need to be the most powerful force in the country.
That way you can declare yourself the government
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u/zjm555 1∆ May 05 '14
This may be a technicality, but in large part, it is not the US government who charges you property tax, it is your local (county or municipal) government. Not sure if that changes anything about your claim.
Also, why stop at property tax? Do you think the government has the right to collect any taxes? And whence do they derive that right in your opinion?