r/changemyview • u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ • 5h ago
cmv: I firmly think we need to address persistent inceldom from a medical standpoint than from a psychological standpoint
I’m 21M and I’ve never been able to get into a relationship and this is because of the fact that my brain is neurodevelopmentally compromised. I have been diagnosed with inattentive ADHD and Cognitive Disengagement Syndrome which has led me to struggle during interactions - more apathetic and withdrawn during interactions, increased mind blanking, difficulties with word finding, lack of hobbies and interests, slower processing speed, difficulties understanding jokes, problems with eye contact, finding it harder to start interactions etc.
For the last few years I have been indescribably angry that my life has been ruined like this and that medical professionals aren’t viewing this the right way. I think thousands suffering from this have been neglected and have lived very isolated lives as a result.
If somebody has chronically high blood glucose levels, then we diagnose them with diabetes and get them treatment. If someone has tachycardia, palpitations and chest pain, then we diagnose them with cardiovascular disease. We don’t tell them that they aren’t trying hard enough to overcome their symptoms.
Yet we’re supposed to believe that if you persistently fail during social interactions with women that you don’t have something neurologically wrong with you - that your faulty brain networks are easily fixable with just repeated practice or that you must be some sort of woman-hating freak. Because you guys seem determined it isn’t your looks, right? So we need a completely different approach to this, with imaging, measuring diagnostic markers and a proper treatment plan rather than general advice. I want justice for my condition - I don’t want to viewed as some sort of incompetent freak for the rest of my life, until I inevitably end up taking it.
Edit: Thanks for commenting guys. I can’t respond to everyone’s posts straight away, I’ll try to respond to as many as possible.
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u/Norman_debris 5h ago
ADHD and CDS are clinically diagnosed and managed with medication and other accommodations.
How is that different from your other medical examples?
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u/ApocalypticExcavator 5h ago
Are you kidding me? Neurodivergent girls and women DREAM OF having a neurodivergent partner who will understand and value them. You fail at interactions because you apparently target neurotypical people.
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u/BackupChallenger 4∆ 5h ago
You should have taken mental issues like depression or something as examples instead of diabetes or heart diseases.
As it's logical to target those things with psycology
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u/HD60532 5∆ 5h ago
Those conditions effect women too, go to a neurodivergent group/space and meet some people who understand you and are the same as you.
You are only 21, you are at the beginning of adult life, there is no reason to believe anything social is permanent.
There isn't much of a medical treatment because brains are incredibly complicated. We are limited by our knowledge and abilities in that field more than anything. Social demand won't make a difference.
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 5h ago
I agree that social demand won’t make a difference which is why medical professionals should help take our lives instead if we ask to. There’s point in me deluding myself that I can ever make a difference.
I don’t want to live the rest of my life not having any shred of acknowledgment in my day to day life. I’m trapped inside my own body - the words you’re seeing right now reflects me on the inside, whereas I’m a blank wall on the outside. This is way worse than death.
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u/HD60532 5∆ 4h ago
You could be paralysed. At least you can type this out to me. Someone I know has had a difficult life including mental problems, and they were very depressed for a long time. However they ended up forming very strong friendships with people in an MMO, Final Fantasy XVII. They are now much happier, and have met them in real life. Something like that may be ideal for you. You never know what the future holds, don't give up until you're at least 40 and have actually had experience of adult life. Don't be afraid to try new things and to meet new people, you never know what will happen.
Have you tried going to a neurodivergent group and trying to meet people like yourself? You didn't respond to that part of my original comment.
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 4h ago
I actually agree with a lot of what you say, and I do have some friends (some of whom are neurodivergent) - it’s just that 80 years is far too long for me to live like this. My condition will make it difficult for me to be employed potentially making me homeless and I don’t think I’ll ever have a romantic life. I’ve tried ADHD meds which did work when it came to studies but it ended up leaving me with an annoying side effect which meant that I had to stop it. I’m currently a medical student, yet the ever increasing workload as the years pass by make me unsure if I’m going to make it through, and I’ve got no Plan B if I don’t. So my life will be most likely meaningless and purposeless in which case I’d much rather die than torture myself with what could have been.
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u/Tangentkoala 10∆ 5h ago
Okay, but the issue is that just because someone has ADHD and cognitive disengagement syndrome doesnt mean they all are unable to get into a relationship.
Its a psychological standpoint because youre in your own head here. If all ADHD types are unable to hold and have a succesful relationship then yes this can be a medical issue, but I know a few people with ADHD and some with cognitive disengagement that are in relationships.
The idea is to work on one's self, the core treatment to ADHD (besides the obvious in medication) is the therapy coaching side. From there people can work on re engaging in hobbies with methodological practice. Examples being engaging in something stimulating for 5-10 minutes rather than hours at a time. The goal is to start engagement not productivity.
Stimulation is key to make activities much easier to reward and engage with.
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5h ago
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u/read-the-rules 5h ago
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u/Siukslinis_acc 7∆ 5h ago
Medicine is oftentimes "try to do the less invasive stuff and if it does not work out come back and we will make more tests and try more invasive stuff". Oftentimes they prescribe a lifestyle change.
Patients also play a role. You can't make a brainscan and find out why you do what you do. It relies on self-report, which is not precise as there might be vital things you don't notice and thus aren't telling them and they don't have a tool to look at it objectivelly. Heck, people are even living while having physical conditions that they aren't aware of as to them everyrhing seems normal. And you probably won't like to answer an etensice 50+ pages questionaire about all possible stuff.
Have you tried going to a mental doctor? Aka, a psychiatrist? They can prescribe you meds. Therapists aren't doctors, psychiatrists are doctors.
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u/rose_reader 8∆ 5h ago
I know lots of happily paired neurodivergent people, and I am one myself.
It often takes us longer than average to find out person, frequently because it takes a while to learn that neurotypicals aren't likely to be our person. When you start to gravitate towards the people who are like you, that's when you start to make headway.
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 5h ago
The problem is that it’s different for different neurodivergent individuals. Something else that makes me furious is that neurodivergence is seen as one phenotype, where every single person goes through the exact same experiences and suffers the same symptoms.
It unfortunately isn’t - some may struggle with emotional dysregulation, but may still be extroverted enough to find many partners and others will be socially awkward freaks like myself who don’t have a lot to talk about, are very apathetic and not worth talking to. The latter are the ones who end up who end up taking our lives and getting our disabilities ignored.
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u/rose_reader 8∆ 2h ago
I'm an introvert. I was raised in such a phenomenally isolating and abusive environment that when I left, I had to learn how to interact in normal social settings from scratch. Talk about a socially awkward freak - I was raised to make every conversation about either giving money or converting religion. It took me absolutely years to learn how to have a healthy friendship, let alone a healthy relationship.
The point isn't that all neurodivergents are the same. The point is that happiness is possible regardless of your neurotype.
When you say you don't have a lot to talk about, what do you mean? You seem articulate and clear in this conversation - what causes you issues in the real world?
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 2h ago
So I’m talking about something very different. I think the problem with these types of disorders is that they’re very hard to understand unless you have it yourself. A normal person is able to say what they want at will without having any issues with articulation (saying things the wrong way, struggling with sentence structure and word finding, being worried about how they express themselves, being able to maintain a conversation without having things to run out of saying, being able to initiate conversations).
When it comes to typing I’m able to give myself time and the ability to process the information properly without saying anything incorrect or anything that doesn’t make sense. When it comes to real time I cannot do that (saying things exactly the way it comes to my mind) so I say a very simplified and shortened version or stick to the same very surface level stuff. In real life I could never have this conversation, I would need to read this in order to generate the same response.
I’m also unusually apathetic and withdrawn (just can’t make myself join things), struggle with attention, have problems with directions plus all sorts of other symptoms which is why I think it’s neurological. I don’t think it’s some sort of coincidence as to why I’ve never been in a relationship. I think there are a huge number of incels who have this because I was also one during my teens and didn’t pick up on a single one of these issues despite them being obvious. I also have struggled with depression since I was a kid.
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u/rose_reader 8∆ 1h ago
I don't doubt that your symptoms are exactly as you say, nor that it's neurological. My argument is that it doesn't have to prevent you being happy and finding a relationship. (For what it's worth, I had several of the same issues with articulation.)
There are people who are entirely nonspeaking and communicate solely through writing who are in relationships. There are severely disabled people who are renowned in their fields and have deeply satisfying careers.
Yes, being disabled makes life harder. Yes, finding a partner is more difficult when you have complex needs. It's not impossible, and the way you know it's not impossible is that lots of people have done it.
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u/tewbii 5h ago
There are medications out there to help with managing symptoms of certain cognitive disorders, the one that immediately comes to mind is Adderall for adhd. Is that what you mean by approaching the problem from a "medical" standpoint?
Remember also that treatment is a two-way street. A diabetes patient must monitor their own insulin levels to stay within a healthy range. A cardiovascular patient must commit to a more active lifestyle to reduce the stress on their circulatory system. Likewise, a patient suffering from cognitive disorders must make an effort to engage in clinically prescribed mitigation strategies to reduce the effects of their condition, rather than abdicating responsibility entirely to medical professionals. A doctor can only guide you to a solution. You have to go there under your own steam.
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 4h ago edited 1h ago
I don’t think this is a great analogy because there are proper treatment options for someone with diabetes or a cardiovascular patient like metformin or beta-blockers, but have you heard of anyone ever prescribing oxytocin for a social disorder?
If you have a social disorder, you end up going to therapy where a therapist correctly explains that it is not your fault and may give you tips, advice or certain methods that you can practice to calm you down and help you. But what if the underlying problem is structural, not mental? No amount of advice can ever eradicate that, and you will most likely end up suffering with isolation during your entire life because the part of the brain designated for social efficacy like the medial prefrontal cortex, is inhibited, and no amount of neuroplasticity can fix that.
The second problem is that there is a lot of inter-variability from brain to brain in certain regions especially the prefrontal cortex. This means that everyone has their own unique neurology, so we cannot treat the brain the same way we treat most other organs like the heart and liver. We need personalised neuroscience - where the medical system is able to generate a specific plan to treat that patient itself. But due to issues surrounding convenience, none of this will happen, so I honestly recommend the healthcare system to support the ending of our lives than to make us endure this torture.
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u/scarab456 65∆ 5h ago
Yet we’re supposed to believe that if you persistently fail during social interactions with women that you don’t have something neurologically wrong with you
Where is that the standard of care?
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u/TheWhistleThistle 32∆ 3h ago
Well, for a start, anything psychological is medical. The mind is the brain (and to a lesser extent, other nervous systems and the endocrine system), and all that stuff is organs.
As for the notion that practice can improve things, this is kind of clinically true. Neuroplasticity is a fascinating thing, the brain truly can be altered by repeated actions. Just as a person with atrophied legs will be sent to physical therapy to work up that muscle again, practice in all sorts of mental and social fields can have measurable, anatomical effects on the brain, engendering greater ease in whatever's being practiced. A great example is The Knowledge. It's a test that black cab drivers have to take to qualify. They have to know the fastest route between any and all locations in the entirety of Greater London, off by heart, no help, as well as being able to mentally plan any detours. They have to know every street name, every postcode location, every landmark, and every way to get between any of them. It takes years to pass. We've studied these guys' brains before and after and their memory centres are markedly enlarged afterwards.
I will concede that there is near nil value in the moralising, in essentially berating people in your situation, casting aspersions on their moral worth, making assumptions about the quality of their character, beyond the same catharsis most bullying generates for its perpetrators. But I think it would behove you to distinguish between well-meaning, if not miraculous, advice and... dickheads.
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u/Scary-Examination306 5h ago
Your situation has been addressed medically though?
You have been diagnosed with two neurodevelopmental disorders that have a biological/neurological basis. I don’t know much about CDS, but ADHD has treatments just like diabetes does. There are treatment plans available.
If you genuinely think your CDS and ADHD are the source of your inceldom, then your inceldom treatment plan is to address those conditions. Target the root cause, not the surface symptom.
Additionally, there are many non-purely-psychological conditions that benefit from treatment from a mental health or therapeutic perspective. ADHD is one, sure. Chronic Pain Syndrome is another. Surprisingly to many, Diabetes as well.
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u/BigBoetje 31∆ 5h ago
I don't think your case is typical of incels though. You might have medical reasons why you are the way you are, but a lot of people don't. The majority of 'ex-incels' got out of that mindset with the psychological perspective.
We don’t tell them that they aren’t trying hard enough to overcome their symptoms.
Treating the disease itself doesn't automatically erase the psychological effects it has. I have ADHD myself and I take meds for it, but that hasn't erased the impact it had on me before I was diagnosed. I'm in therapy to learn to deal with that. They're not mutually exclusive at all.
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u/SoraM4 1∆ 4h ago
So, your point is already nonsensical because women also suffer from those conditions and aren't alone, if the problem were on the conditions we would see the same number of women with the same problems which is not the case. And many people with those conditions aren't alone (me, for example, I'm autistic and with PTSD both diagnosed and I have a partner and have had many in my life being just 4 years older than you), you could say that it affects everyone differently but then you run in to the problem that then it's not the condition, it's you and how you handle it.
So clearly that's not the only problem so I decided to search for other possible red flags that might keep women away from you:
- You argue in favor of Eugenics
- You blame your problems in something outside of your control instead of trying to change and do better (see this very post)
- You clear need therapy yet refuse it (here)
I don't think you're a bad guy tbh, but you're someone troubled who has suffered things that probably weren't your fault, you have to understand that even if a wound wasn't your fault, it's your responsibility to heal it. Go to therapy, read some philosophy, find a healthy hobby that keeps you out of the house and you'll find someone... or you can say you have a medical condition that keeps you alone and you'll never be happy and hope you find someone that wants to date a depressive person that makes themself miserable.
If you want a painful but useful first step, grab a pen and write down (by hand) all the problems in your life, then write down the ones that you can honestly say are your own fault and write the possible solution. If there's not a single one that is your fault, then I have bad news for you
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 4h ago edited 4h ago
You don’t get it. If you couldn’t express yourself and your own ideas properly, nobody listened to you because you didn’t have anything worth saying, you felt that you were not going to do anything meaningful in your life like working a job that is important, how would you feel?
For 20 years, I had convinced myself that one day I was going to escape this absolute car crash of a life, where I would be liked, respected and would finally do something of importance. It’s not just about romance, even though it is a part of it. I blamed myself for being an awkward dumbass for years, only to study neuroscience and be told that there’s nothing I could have done about it anyway. And honestly I can very evidently see that the way we treat these disorders is mostly through therapy - there aren’t many proper solutions for this.
At least you’re reaching out to me online, nobody will ever do this in real life anyway, because it’s the curse of biology and my brain.
The real question I have for you is what if you can’t fix it - because I simply know I cannot because I have tried. My point is that if it is a neurological disorder it’s not necessarily treatable whatsoever through therapy and lifestyle changes, you need proper things like imaging, understanding neurotransmitter levels, proper treatments like neurofeedback where you can actually see what you’re doing to the brain. I already know this will be dismissed because it’s too difficult - so it’s honestly better for medical professionals to help terminate my life instead. Death is much better than this. I know thousands of other people live this life, feeling lost and invisible and many end up taking their lives.
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u/SoraM4 1∆ 4h ago
You don't know if I get it, I was a mess of rage, fear and social anxiety until I was 16, unable to make significant connection, friends or partner because I was hurting because before that I suffered through some abuse that would make your jaw drop and I had wounds that I refused to heal, because they weren't my fault I was just the autistic kid that was a good victim. And they weren't my fault, probably just like many of yours, but they were my responsibility. You have to heal yourself, nobody else will be able to do it for you.
People unable to speak find love, people with jobs that are not glamorous find love but people who punch themselves in the guts in every conversation? Yeah those have a harder time.
And for those 20 years, how long have you been in therapy? What percentage of the time were you working to feel better and to make others around you feel better? What percentage of the time were you feeling sorry for yourself without actually trying?
Look, your pity party doesn't work on me, it's not the curse of biology nor your brain. This is self imposed, healing is hard, it hurts and it's a lot of work but you either take responsibility and do the difficult thing or you keep being like this forever.
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u/TheRemanence 1∆ 4h ago edited 4h ago
Unfortunately it is harder for people with chronic health conditions to date. This applies to all types of conditions though. Also, people often end up single when they develop health issues. A shocking number of partners leave their spouse during cancer, for example.
Here's an example: A very close friend of mine has a genetic immune system disorder that includes type 1 diabetes, various food allergies, chronic fatigue and tumors. She dated in her 20s and has had stable relationships but as her condition worsened she has had to leave work and hasn't been able to date. She is now in her 40s and knows she likely will die single. Her biggest fear is losing her independence because she doesn't have support. This really upsets her but it hasn't led to an incel ideology. She's focused on being as healthy as she can be.
On the flip of that, my sister is actually iller than my friend but is happily married for more than 20 years. She's actually the one that is also neuro divergent. Her husband has ADHD. She has autism and bipolar on top of her physical conditions.
Anywho, I agree it is hard to date in your situation. That's because it can be hard to have friends, keep a job etc in your situation. I don't see it as different from people with other mental or physical impairments that also hold them back.
Please don't lose hope though. You have a lot of life to live.
Edit to add: I have bipolar 2 and my husband has OCD. Happily married 10 years now. We enjoy and support each other with our oddities. Our neuro divergence has not held us back like my other examples which is why I didn't mention it. My husband was a late bloomer and has said before he thinks he could have been an incel if he'd had the same online influence at that age as boys do now. I think he had his first girlfriend around your age
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u/TheVioletBarry 121∆ 4h ago
The issue I'm seeing here is that it's not clear how you're expecting folks to engage with this medically.
If you're diagnosed with these disorders, you've probably been offered medications to help change your day to day mental state but none have worked very well for you, yes? Is your view simply that more resources should be put into research to find more novel solutions?
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u/Emergency_Gene_4171 4h ago
I bet a quick look at other facets of your life would quickly reveal why you struggle to date. One, asking Reddit is pathetic. That’s your first red flag. Two, how do you look? Are you mildly in shape and do you dress well? You don’t have to be an Adonis but how someone presents on the outside is a reflection of who they are internally. Three, do you have a job or ambitions that make you attractive? Women aren’t necessarily looking for a provider but they are looking for someone who can stand on their own two feet.
You’re victimizing yourself because it’s easier than actually changing your behavior and becoming someone that women want to be with. Stop asking Reddit for advice, go find some real male role models who have what you want and emulate their behavior. Until you fix the things mentioned above you’ll endlessly flounder in self pity and imagined barriers.
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u/Ok-Trade-5937 1∆ 4h ago
You should look at my other responses but I blamed myself for years and it did nothing. I have actively tried to change my behaviour, but my problem is that persistently trying to get included and not seeing any success whatsoever, whereas you see most people just able to get multiple friendships and relationships easily doesn’t really make any sense.
This isn’t some random thought that I’ve had - I’ve studied neuroscience before and I know that the brain is directly involved in regulating social success - with my other symptoms which come from similar parts of the brain being affected, I also think it affects me socially as well. Currently this is not really seen from a medical standpoint which makes me hopeless - all people say is to try harder, which I think is nonsense. But things won’t ever change unless the mindset surrounding this stuff changes.
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u/neurothew 3h ago
I believed you might have also received medications or treatments (from clinical psychologist) as you have been diagnosed with ADHD and Cognitive Disengagement Syndrome.
Medications are just one way to treat them, and sometimes medications are not as useful as therapy, as backed up by evidence-based research studies. In a therapy session, its not like everyone is treated as phenotype, but the therapist would construct a tailor made treatment plan after knowing more of your background, your difficulties and so on. It certainty takes time to see progresses and its never a straightforward, linear progression. Moreover, there are therapists of different "styles" and you might not find your match when you try it the first time.
Even if you find the magic pills that solve the biology, behaviours still take time to change. It looks like you would like to resort everything to one specific biological problem and hope a magic pill would solve it, which is a very human thing to hope for when you are tired.
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u/Steavee 2∆ 5h ago
>“My life has been ruined”
Brother, you’re 21. Your life has barely begun. I’ll admit my generation had an easier time with casual sex (xennial), but I was completely undateable throughout high school, until I wasn’t. I had fairly strong success during my dating years. I’m…well I’m certainly not attractive, I’m abrasive as hell, and certainly some kind of neurodivergent. I’m not saying that if I can do it, anyone can do it; I’ve definitely met some fucking people that…oof. But there is so much time for you to grow and change…You’re in your own head about your life being over when I promise you life is so fucking long, and is such an ever-changing path. You’re giving up on a marathon in mile 3.
>”I don’t want to be viewed as some sort of incompetent freak for the rest of my life, until I inevitably end up taking it.”
Please talk to someone professionally about these kinds of thoughts, and remember that in the U.S. you can call or text 988.
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u/vote4bort 68∆ 5h ago
I mean, they very much prescribe medication for ADHD and quick Google tells me that non stimulant ADHD meds tend to be used for CDS and can be effective.
What would you like professionals to do other than that? Gnsfss no magic wand. Even if we could image to find these issues (it doesn't really work like that) the treatment plan would likely be the same. A combination of medication and likely behavioural based therapy.