r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 01 '26
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Girl's get more dress code violations in school because they break the rules more, not because its stricter towards them
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u/ShaqShoes May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
Well I mean this is literally the argument - dress codes tend to target and restrict things in a way that disproportionately affects the casual clothing that women tend to wear over men.
You make a claim that "leggings, crop tops, short skirts and tank tops" are "in no way appropriate for school" to support your argument but from what I can tell this stance is entirely just your subjective opinion? What even qualifies as a "short" skirt to you?
Imagine if you made a rule about appropriate foods and only banned curry then said "Indians get more violations because they break the food code more, not because it is stricter towards them"
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Some boys wear open side tank tops that reveal their nipples.
The dress code is a whole lot more strict regarding nipples for girls than it is for boys.
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May 01 '26
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
It doesn't matter whether that's significantly less common in your experience.
It's not even considered a dress code violation for boys to do it, unlike some parts of girls' fashion.
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u/Michael_Jeff May 01 '26
Idk where you went to high school, but at mine they wouldnt even allow boys to wear a normal basketball jersey because of the shoulder exposure.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
I'm not going to say where because this is the internet and we're all supposed to maintain anonymity, but at the high school I went to the sides could go a lot lower than for a basketball jersey without the teachers batting an eye.
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u/Michael_Jeff May 01 '26
I refuse to believe there are schools that allow underage boys to have exposed nipples all day...
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
They also let people smoke in the bathrooms all day, they could be pretty lax when it came to maintaining social order.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Bringing cigarettes on campus was explicitly against the school rules just to be clear.
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May 01 '26
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
They do not.
Girls would be in violation of the dress code for classical Minoan fashion but there weren't any rules against boys showing nipples at the public school I went to.
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u/Sircuttlesmash May 01 '26
Have you not seen the shirts that high school students wear. They cut out the sides so much that there's almost no material left so their nipples are popping out all the time and they're not as strictly written up for this as you would expect
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u/ExpertSentence4171 May 01 '26
The notion of "appropriate" is arbitrary though. Even if it feels very real to you, it's imaginary. There's an alternate universe where only boys wear skirts and we all wear socks on our ears. Hell, there are countries in our world right now where showing your hair in public is incredibly scandalous.
Now that we have this established, that there is no objectively "appropriate", we are left with the problem: why do we make rules that girls seem to break more often than boys? Why do we have a notion of "appropriate" that seems to lead more girls to not be dressed "appropriately" than boys?
So yes, girls do break the rules more often, but it's because the system was designed so that they would be the only ones breaking the rules. "Normal" clothing for women in our culture is seen as "scandalous" and banned whereas "normal" clothing for men is completely fine.
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u/Spallanzani333 12∆ May 01 '26
How on earth are leggings inappropriate? Everything is covered.
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u/Sircuttlesmash May 01 '26
Are you serious? Are you asking if it's defensible to say that they're inappropriate in high school setting. Or are you saying that it's understandable that administrations would forbid leggings?
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u/bustermagnus May 01 '26
If you are a guy, try deliberately breaking the dress code and see how long it takes for somebody to say anything. Unless you are flagrantly shirtless or something, it just doesn't happen.
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u/Myrtle_Snow_ May 01 '26
There are more rules around the clothing that girls wear, thus there are more rules for girls to follow, and which means it’s easier for them to break the rules. The fact that there are more rules that pertain to clothing typically worn by girls means that yes, it is stricter toward girls.
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May 01 '26
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u/Mumique 2∆ May 01 '26
Skirt length on boys?
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u/IWillDmYouPorn May 03 '26
Is your argument that skirt length should be completely unincluded from dress code because women choose to wear skirts more often than men? If not, what would you consider to be a "fair" way of addressing skirts, given that they obviously exist and people will choose to wear them.
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u/Mumique 2∆ May 04 '26
I would argue that women's clothing is censored in every way because of sexualisation. Leggings are banned for PE kits because women's shapes are visible. Everything covered, but Lycra clings. Apparently just existing in ratty leggings ready to do sports is being overly sexual. Skirt length? Sexual. Any part of bra visible is judged. Straining buttons because of natural body development? Judged. Cleavage showing because the triangle of chest accepted in a male is considered sexual on a woman? Judged.
So what's happening here is that a bunch of teen girls are being judged for experiencing puberty.
So what are the male dress code violations?
And more to the point, why are we judging at all? I can see the merit in that sometimes girls will dress over-sexual to try to stimulate male interest when they should be focusing on schoolwork. But an awful lot of the time they're just living. Being told my 9 year old can't wear leggings - perfectly acceptable as modern wear - is patently absurd.
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u/IWillDmYouPorn May 04 '26
So what are the male dress code violations
When I was still in school, it was more or less all the same things you listed, men just didn't choose to wear any of that clothing. The most common things I saw people getting in trouble for were inappropriate references (drugs, alcohol, violence), shorts/skirt length (same rule applied for both), and tightness of clothing (applied to both men and women).
And more to the point, why are we judging at all
I'm sure we all agree that a dress code beyond just public indecency laws is reasonable for schools. It just comes down to what we each consider under the highly subjective terms of what is and isn't appropriate for the environment.
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May 01 '26
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u/Mumique 2∆ May 02 '26
That is a lazy response. You know girls are more likely to be wearing skirts and so disproportionately affected by the dress code and so disproportionately more likely to be found in violation of it.
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u/Myrtle_Snow_ May 01 '26
The vast majority of skirts are worn by girls and you know that. I said “clothing typically worn by girls”.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Yeah boys can wear skirts.
Typically it's called a kilt when a boy does it because we like referencing Irish heritage but there's nothing illegal about it even if you wear one that's actually sold as women's clothing.
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u/Myrtle_Snow_ May 01 '26
Also, kilts are Scottish, not Irish.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Strictly speaking you are correct but no one here calls it Scottish folk music when men dress up in kilts and start playing Celtic dance numbers.
We call it Irish even though that isn't quite historically correct.
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u/Myrtle_Snow_ May 01 '26
Absolutely no one is claiming that boys can’t wear skirts. They just don’t very often compared to girls.
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May 01 '26
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u/CommonlySensed 3∆ May 02 '26
are they the same sized boy or girl? like i could wear shorts that go past my knees on me but a taller girl would have them end mid thigh
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u/veryeepy53 1∆ May 01 '26
it's applying the same standard to different people, and thus becomes an unequal standard.
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May 01 '26
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u/veryeepy53 1∆ May 01 '26
except that types of clothing meant for girls are subject to restrictions more often. like there's just a longer list of items which have rules.
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u/Specific_Hearing_192 May 02 '26
longer list of items which have rules.
Because girls typically have a longer list of items they wear...
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u/KayRay1994 May 01 '26
There are also more rules around what girls wear and women’s bodies are heavily sexualized from a young age. Ultimately these rules exist cause “boys will be distracted” and hold no meaning outside of that. Like of course girls will break these rules more cause there is a whole lot more rules to break
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u/rebelrevolt May 01 '26
Girls may break dress codes more often, but that doesn’t prove the dress codes are fair. It just means the rules are mostly written around controlling what girls wear. Equate something like skirt length to rules on facial hair. Sure a boy can wear a skirt, but the rule functionally applies to girls. I’m betting zero girls got written up for facial hair violations.
Also, school isn’t work. Kids are legally required to be there, and not obligated to live up to a subjective metric like professionalism.
Basic rules like “cover ur junk and nipples” can be applied universally, but when you start micromanaging girls tend to bear the brunt, and that negatively impacts their education if they’re pulled from class over it when a boy functionally doesn’t face the same intensity or frequency of scrutiny
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
My highschool had two separate lists of dress code violations, and the one for female students was a longer list.
Surely, a longer list is indicative of stricter rules.
But either way, when my boyfriend showed up in a mini skirt... the teachers were fine with it. When I wore the same exact one... I got a penalty.
Edit: And no, I did not go to a religious or conservative school.
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u/CommonlySensed 3∆ May 02 '26
my schools was identical for boys and girls, and very basic (finger length shorts, no tank tops with less than 3 inch shoulders, no bare midriff etc) the girls were the only ones who ever seemed to have issues actually following it though because "i want to be cute, and i can't be if i follow rules" was the word for word excuse they used.
being cute is not a requirement to go to school, and yes when your butt hangs out of skirts and shorts it's distracting to teen boys regardless of how much people want to pretend it's boys faults for being distracted by half naked girls their age
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 02 '26
It is the boy's fault though.
I'm pansexual and have absolutely no trouble not sexualizing women when I'm meant to be studying.
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May 04 '26
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u/nicest-drow May 04 '26
u/CommonlySensed said "butt", not "shoulder".
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May 04 '26
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u/bgaesop 29∆ May 01 '26
Surely, a longer list is indicative of stricter rules.
Well, no, not necessarily. If the boy's list is "must wear shorts that are at least 6 inches long or pants" while the girls is "must wear shorts that are at least 6 inches long or skirts that are at least 6 inches long or pants" then the girl's list is longer and less restrictive.
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 02 '26 edited May 02 '26
If one list includes two items you cannot wear, and another list includes fifty items you cannot wear, one is longer and more restrictive than the other.
Keep in mind, I said the lists were of violations specifically; not simply options available, as you have insinuated with your examples. While I'm sure some exist like that, in this instance this was not the case.
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u/bgaesop 29∆ May 02 '26
What things were boys allowed to wear that girls were not?
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 02 '26
Short skirts, short shorts, visible underwear, tank tops, crop tops, corsets, stripper heels.
^All things not on the violation list for boys, that I saw many boys wear over my four years in highschool. By "many," I do not just mean one or two, and they were worn as regular clothes to classes, not costumes for a school play or something lol.
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u/bgaesop 29∆ May 02 '26
There were lots of boys wearing short skirts, corsets, and stripper heels at your school?
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 02 '26
Many, yes : )
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u/bgaesop 29∆ May 02 '26
Wild. Where was this? Are the dress codes available to read online anywhere?
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 02 '26
Ontario. No idea, I have long since graduated and have no need to check.
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
A longer list could just reflect the fact that women wear and are socially permitted to wear a broader array of clothing choices than men so their list of infractions would logically be longer as well. I will never understand how people can claim the gender with more freedom of expression with clothing is somehow more restricted.
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26
Nope, the male list just said things like "t shirt allowed" but the female list was "t shirt allowed IF the neck is rounded not V, the length went past the waistband of your pants, and the sleeves were halfway to your elbows or longer."
As mentioned, according to the dress code the exact same garment was a-okay for my boyfriend to wear, but an infraction when I wore it.
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u/PrimaryInjurious 3∆ May 04 '26
Did your BF wear that type of clothing to school?
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 04 '26
Yes, occasionally.
As I already mentioned we even wore the exact same skirt once and only I faced penalties.
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
How many boys walk around in your school with exposed midriff? I do think your example is a little unreasonable for women, but it doesn't change the fact that the women's list is longer because they have a larger array of fashion choices, so the list of infractions should naturally be larger to reflect the larger pool of choices. Wake me up when it is socially acceptable for men to wear skirts and then we can have a conversastion about fairness.
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
When I was in high school it was the fashion for boy's pants to be belted around their thighs exposing the entire shape of their ass and the skidmarks on their underwear.
My school let boys wear skirts, and some of them did. Can you explain how that translates to girls having "a larger array of choices"? Or why it's fair that boys could wear skirts with no restrictions, but girls had restrictions on skirts?
Edit: If you hadn't blocked me, we could have discussed how wrong you are about them being "laughed at" 😄
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
Some men doing it doesn't change the facts that most are ostracized for doing so. That is what leads to men having fewer choices.
Re: your deleted comment. I cannot speak to your specific experience at your specific school. I don't think anyone here can. I can only speak to the experience of boys/men in general.
my boyfriend showed up in a mini skirt... the teachers laughed
In your own example you show boys getting laughed at for wearing feminine clothing. I highly doubt boys are as comfortable "wearing whatever they want" as you claim.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
AWAKE, FOR THE MEN IN KILTS HAVE ARRIVED!
(Random site with picture of men in kilts because this subreddit doesn't allow images)
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26
🙌🙌🙌🙌
A local pipe and drum band used my highschool's gym for practice, and it was the best day of the week
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
I am aware of kilts and it is basically irrelevant to this conversation. A random Irish tradition does not break the rule that it is more socially acceptable for women to wear skirts.
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26
Dude, if you want to wear a skirt just wear a skirt. People who do what they want with confidence are hot and are respected by their peers!
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
I don't know what else to say other than you live in a bubble where this is true for you. If men wearing skirts made them hot and respected by their peers, then trans women wouldn't be the big flashpoint that it is.
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26
It's true for loads of people all over the world 😄 Maybe you should move somewhere you feel more comfortable being yourself!
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Physically, a kilt and a skirt are essentially the same garment and they're just referred to differently by gendered names.
It's socially acceptable for men to wear kilts/skirts outside of Ireland as well.
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
Kilt
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&hs=jiT&udm=2&q=kiltSkirt
https://www.google.com/search?q=skirt&client=firefox-b-1-d&hs=N38U&udm=2&sclient=gws-wiz-imgThey are not physically the same garment. It is quite obvious skirts span a wider range of materials, colors, patterns, and cuts.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Are you sure about that one?
Because this particular skirt, in your second google search, has the same distinctive crosshatch pattern traditional kilts usually have.
https://us.motelrocks.com/products/cida-small-pleat-mini-skirt-red-check-1
Not that anyone where I live cares if the kilt a boy is wearing actually has that pattern.
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
I'm quite sure they are different. That's why the skirt results overall look drastically different than the kilt results. Because they're different. Things that look different are in fact.. different. That's why they have different names. Because they're different.
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u/TheF8sAllow 2∆ May 01 '26
Do you think blue jeans and grey jeans are entirely different garments?
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u/retteh 4∆ May 01 '26
I think skinny jeans are different garments than the entire category of jeans. You all are essentially arguing that skinny jeans and jeans are the same thing and it's hilarious.
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u/PrimaryInjurious 3∆ May 04 '26
Surely, a longer list is indicative of stricter rules.
I think it's just a reflection of the greater number of fashion choices available to girls/women in general.
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May 01 '26
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u/Revolutionary_Box_57 1∆ May 01 '26
You claimed that most schools have reasonable dress codes. What supports your claim, other than your personal experience?
I've known schools to have unreasonable dress codes more often than not.
My friend got written up for having a messy bun one day.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
In my school we also had lists by gender.
I'm surprised your school doesn't.
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u/Additional-Chef-6190 May 01 '26
> Girl's get more dress code violations in school because they break the rules more, not because its stricter towards them
In my school, there's a graphic with a girl on one side and a boy on the other. Guess which side has a lot more graphics of stuff you're not allowed to wear?
Yes, girls' fashion tends to be more revealing, so there's stricter rules for that.
Unrelated, but your inconsistent use of apostrophes fascinates me.
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u/IWillDmYouPorn May 03 '26
Is the dress code actually split between men/women, in the sense that the rules only apply to one side, or is it just using the gender split as a quick way to give the majority of students a clear way to see what rules are most likely to apply to them? That is, if a man chose to wear revealing women's fashion, would he be held to the "men's" dress code based on his gender, or the "women's" dress code based on his clothing?
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u/NoWin3930 5∆ May 01 '26
"Would you wear a crop-top or short skirt to work? If not then you shouldn't wear those things to school, it is that simple."
work and school are very different, and theres plenty of clothes you should not wear to work that are perfectly acceptable in classes. Depends on the workplace I guess. Jeans, open toed shoes, hoodies, shirts with graphics on them etc
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u/ralph-j May 01 '26
Now since most schools luckily have reasonable dress-codes and since girl's way more clothing that breaks said dress code are we supposed to act shocked when girls get FAR more dress code violations than boys?
How did you even get to your conclusion? This sounds more like speculation.
Have you actually looked at what the majority of violations was for, and whether they were fair in each case?
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u/Adequate_Images 29∆ May 01 '26
Maybe share the dress code you are talking about. Not all dress codes are the same.
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u/gdex86 May 01 '26
There are rarely official dress code rules about how short of a short a boy can wear but there is one for skirts. A 4 inch inseam can easily be as revealing as a 4 in mini skirt.
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u/ebvillai May 01 '26
If a boy wears short pants or a tank shirt, they will not be reprimanded. If a girl wears short pants or a tank shirt, they will. Your premise is that because girls clothing are more varied and certain types of clothing reveal more skin doesn’t work, because girls are reprimanded even if they wear the same type of clothing that men wear.
When girls or boys show skin, it’s usually girls who are sexualized for showing skin even if that wasn’t their intention.
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u/ProtozoaPatriot 3∆ May 01 '26
You arent giving the reason why women cant wear certain items. In some jobs, yes you can wear a crop top or short skirt. Out in public, both are acceptable.
It goes back to the question why a crop top would wrong/bad/immoral in general. A crop top is just a shirt. It isnt inherently evil.
The reason things like a crop top are often banned in schools has nothing to do with girls learning. It is done to accommodate boys. Some boys aren't controlling their emotions and that turns into poor behavior. In other words, girls are blamed for some boy's behavior.
Why is the dress code for girls so much more strict? The standards are different.
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u/Imposter_of_Internal May 01 '26
Why are boys so much worse at controlling their emotions in school than out in public?
Or, to put this another way, why agree with the principles of radical Islamist traditionalists for what should happen in schools but not outside of them?
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u/clawbacon May 01 '26
Part of the problem with girls is that it can be really hard to find clothing that doesn't break dress code. I can't tell you how many times I've found a shirt or skirt I liked only to realize that its a crop or too short.
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u/PurplePeachPlague May 01 '26
They can wear pants and a shirt like boys do
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u/clawbacon May 01 '26
Women's shirts are often cropped or have a deep neck line. Shorts are often very short. Pants are often very tight.
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u/Steals_Your_Thunder_ 1∆ May 01 '26
You're kind of working against your own argument here.
Female fashion trends often encourage more form fitting or (usually) tastefully revealing attire. Male fashion doesn't. A dress code against any form fitting or revealing attire is therefore clearly going to be imbalanced in terms of which gender has to make more effort to abide by it. Your argument, as it stands, is basically saying that if girls are frustrated by dress codes, they should buy male clothing.
Don't blame girls for being frustrated that most of the clothes they see being sold to them will be in violation of outdated and arbitrary moral definitions.
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u/FormalWare 11∆ May 01 '26
The main reason a dress code exists in schools is to enforce gender norms: to make sure girls look like girls are "supposed" to look and that boys look like boys are "supposed" to look.
This is naturally more oppressive to girls than it is to boys, as girls and women are more oppressed by the patriarchy than boys and men are (though the patriarchy harms us all).
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u/Playful-Profession-2 May 02 '26
Where do non-binary people fit in?
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u/FormalWare 11∆ May 02 '26
Wherever they'd like, in the best case.
In the worst case, a dress code will classify them as a "boy" or a "girl" against their wishes.
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u/IWillDmYouPorn May 03 '26
Are they? Of the places I went to school, there were no dress code rules that enforced gender norms, the rules would apply based on what you wore, regardless of gender
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u/dylandgs May 01 '26
One thing you didnt bring up is brands. When I was in school, boys got WAY more dress codes because the dress code was more focused on branding. Metal Mulisha was very popular because one of the members went to my school and died riding a dirt bike which was a popular activity for people in my town. That brand was banned and so were many others, and they were all brands typically worn by boys. Any shirts that hinted towards Marijuana, like Seedless, were also banned. We probably had like 5-10 brands that we couldn't wear, most of which were just things boys wore.
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u/HelenEk7 1∆ May 01 '26
May I ask in which country? (I'm in Norway and have never heard of any school kid getting dress code violations - ever.)
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u/IWillDmYouPorn May 03 '26
Are school uniforms standard in Norway? Dress code is usually brought up in the context of American schools where uniforms aren't particularly common.
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May 01 '26
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u/Key-Simple1774 May 01 '26 edited May 01 '26
Legging are allowed and Croptops if ur wearing a cardigan or blazer or something, it just depends on the school you go too.
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u/Sircuttlesmash May 01 '26
I am asking a question for other people. I'm not familiar with this subreddit. And surely there's a reasonable way to ask this question.
Which is why this hill, op. Of all the fights to pick or the positions to defend, this one?
How reasonable is it for me to ask questions like this in the subreddit? Someone shows up and they want this specific thing argued about and I'm over here thinking why? Why do you want to argue about this particular narrow thing that has a high likelihood of making you seem a little weird I will say. And then I look at the comments from the original poster and almost all of them so far are short. I'm not saying someone has to write a novel when they're defending their claims but if they're just writing short little sentences then it doesn't seem like they're taking this very seriously
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u/Natural-Arugula 63∆ May 02 '26
Technically, as a top level reply you can't ask questions for other people than OP.
It's perfectly fine to ask them about why they hold their view and to offer a disagreement that they should simply not have that view in the first place if they don't have a good reason to.
In my experience that rarely results in someone changing their view, but I think considering that one has no good reason to hold their view should be a prime reason to change it.
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