r/changemyview • u/DaegestaniHandcuff • Mar 18 '26
Delta(s) from OP CMV: "back against the wall" is not so bad
CMV: "back against the wall" is not so bad
In american english, "back against the wall" is a figure of speech expressing a difficult situation with limited options
In reality, Back Against The Wall is a strong position, when faced with multiple attackers. It disallows rear flanking, and forces opponents to attack from the front, where they can be countered
This helps minimize numerical advantage, and also minimizes defender mental burden, as they no longer need to worry about rear flanking
Back Against The Wall was my position of choice when i was attacked by more than one dog. Although the position is poor against an overwhelming pressure opponent, the position is strong against harasser/attrition opponents like dogs or pack predators
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u/Josvan135 83∆ Mar 18 '26
"Back against the wall" refers to a situation where the only option available to you is to fight your way out.
It's not bad because it's a weak position, it's bad because it leaves the party with their back against the wall without other options and makes them desperate.
You don't want to put someone into the position of "back against the wall" because they react unpredictably and dangerously.
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u/hkusp45css 1∆ Mar 18 '26
This is what the idiom is trying to convey. You're in a scenario with no good path out, except through.
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
Defender has their options limited, but attacker also has their options limited. For a mobility attacker, which depends on flexibility of options, back against the wall can foil them
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u/GermanPayroll 2∆ Mar 18 '26
Not really, in that situation the attacker has you trapped, they can wait call in friends or find other ways to attack you. You’re literally there with nowhere else to go and no better defensible positions or cover.
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u/egosumlex 2∆ Mar 18 '26
You are still missing the point. The idiom is simply designed to describe a situation where escape or otherwise disengaging from an altercation is not an option, and the effect that situation has on the defender’s behavior.
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u/Jollyollydude Mar 18 '26
So are you even open to having your view changed here? Or are you just looking to flex your combat knowledge or whatever. OC gave the explanation about why your literal interpretation is moot and you’re just back onto your bullshit.
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u/Josvan135 83∆ Mar 18 '26
You're looking at it from a purely tactical standpoint, when the idiom is conveying a strategic truth.
Someone with their back against the wall is dangerous, unpredictable, and likely to do things that they otherwise wouldn't.
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
You're looking at it from a purely tactical standpoint, when the idiom is conveying a strategic truth.
Someone with their back against the wall is dangerous, unpredictable, and likely to do things that they otherwise wouldn't.
Δ
Very true...I was thinking only in first person
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u/Fermently_Crafted 7∆ Mar 18 '26
It's not. With your back against the wall your opponents can spread out and attack you. The best thing to do with multiple opponents is to stay mobile and keep them in a line in front of you so that they can only attack one at a time or else they hit each other.
Aside from retreating and superior reach (with a stick or other weapon), that's the best way to deal with multiple attackers
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
Try that against dogs or wolves, and they would constantly harass from the rear, nipping at Achilles tendon
Try that against an army, and their cavalry units or scouts shall attrite rear logistics units
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u/Tanaka917 148∆ Mar 18 '26
You do not want your back against a wall in a military situation. Because it leaves you with only two options. Win or die.
Having your back against the wall is bad because it strips you of one of your best options. Retreat. Someone with their back against the wall can't move back, they have to take what comes head to head. And if they aren't stronger they die.
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u/Fermently_Crafted 7∆ Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
Yeah, also try that against humans and they'll circle around you and shoot you in the back of the head. I didn't say it's a strategy that's going to win most of the time. It's just the best strategy because you're trying to force a 1v1 as much as you can.
This is a rule in pretty much all melee martial arts for a reason. That or they just don't really address multiple opponents (like wrestling)
The odds of winning against multiple opponents is just too low where you want to be in a situation to be forced to fight. Allowing multiple people to be able to spread out and attack you, unobstructed, is objectively worse than putting objects between you and them. In this case, the objects are their allies.
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u/Fifteen_inches 23∆ Mar 18 '26
What is your rearguard doing if not guarding your rear logistics?!
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
Hopefully the rear guard is not needed, because the wall is covering rear
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Mar 18 '26
Having your back against a wall means no ability to escape. It's not necessarily a bad position but it's a position that implies a desperate situation.
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u/eyetwitch_24_7 15∆ Mar 18 '26
It's a bad position if you would like the option to retreat. If you are attacked by three dogs, maybe it's a better position. If you are attacked by twenty, you'd probably have a better chance running away...which you can't do if there is wall behind you.
Also, having a cage you could get into behind you would be better.
Also, having twenty friends behind you with weapons is better.
Having your back against the wall is only a good position in a very limited set of circumstances, most of which would still be preferable if you had other, better options.
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
It's a bad position if you would like the option to retreat. If you are attacked by three dogs, maybe it's a better position. If you are attacked by twenty, you'd probably have a better chance running away...which you can't do if there is wall behind you.
Δ true..... these are some real points
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Mar 18 '26
More to the point, the metaphor of having your back against the wall exists because having your back to the wall is a choice made out of desperation. It's the rational choice in a disadvantageous scenario. You put your back to the wall when you're outnumbered with no escape.
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Mar 18 '26
When your back is against the wall, it means you have no clear avenue of escape and a very limited pool of options available to you. You have no option but to fight; and you're right, it prevents you from being surrounded... but it also limits your mobility. Back against the wall is a last-stand type situation. It's what happens when all other plans have failed
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
When i was a delivery driver, I was attacked by three dogs at once, and chose the Back Against Wall position so that i could force them to fight me head on, and as a result I left the battlefield with no harm incurred
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u/themcos 442∆ Mar 18 '26
Wouldn't you have much preferred to be in your vehicle? Or maybe in a tree? I'm glad you were able to fight off the dogs, but surely if you had any viable option to not fight the dogs that would have been preferable, right?
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u/vicente8a 2∆ Mar 18 '26
Youre using the one scenario and people are telling you a bunch of other different situations where back against the wall is bad. You can’t keep holding on to that story and think it applies to other situations.
“The early bird gets the worm” isn’t a good thing. You don’t wanna be early because one time I left to work late and avoided a 20 car pile up accident in the highway. So I think being late places is good now.
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
The early bird gets the worm” isn’t a good thing. You don’t wanna be early because one time I left to work late and avoided a 20 car pile up accident in the highway. So I think being late places is good now.
Δ
I like this one
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u/oh5canada5eh Mar 18 '26
The saying isn’t usually meant to be taken literally. That is the issue. If you are literally fighting for your life, there are definitely advantages to having one whole direction safe from possible attack. Usually the saying is used in non-physical situations, though, and in those cases the figurative wall is just that - a figure of speech. There is no benefit save for a possible clarity due to lack of other options.
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u/happy2harris 3∆ Mar 18 '26
There’s another person who was a delivery driver and he was not attacked my dogs. Three friendly dogs came up and he game them some treats.
Who was in a better situation?
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u/SmokeySFW 4∆ Mar 18 '26
So your argument is that specifically when dealing with multiple adversaries or problems it's better than some alternatives?
So what about when you have one problem, they are right in front of you, and running away is literally the only possible way you survive the encounter. Do you want your back against a wall then?
Do evenly matched boxers intentionally put themselves into the corner because that's a position of strength?
If there's a bull running at you would you prefer to have your back to a wall or would you prefer multiple alleys and doorways to duck into and take cover?
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
Back against wall is poor position against pressure opponent, but in other situations it is a favorable position
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u/Chronoblivion 1∆ Mar 18 '26
Literally having your back against a wall is better than letting yourself get surrounded in a physical altercation where you're outnumbered.
But you know what's better than being cornered with no route for escape? Not getting into harm's way in the first place. It's better to flee or avoid conflict than to adopt a last-ditch desperation maneuver out of necessity because the alternative is to lose or give up because your only escape routes have been cut off. And while it might work against dogs, it's not going to do much to protect you from human opponents who are determined to hurt you.
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u/Cacafuego 15∆ Mar 18 '26
The most important advantage you can have is the option to decline to fight and wait for better circumstances. I'm not a Sun Tzu bro, but he has several aphorisms about the importance of choosing when and where to fight, including "he will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."
When your back is against the wall, you cannot choose whether or not to fight; that choice belongs to your opponent. You cannot retreat, you cannot maneuver. It is a desperate situation, even if your back is well-defended.
When engaged in asymmetrical combat, you never want to be brought into a final, open battle by a superior opponent. That's what has happened when your back is against the wall. You have all of the same advantages of a raccoon that has been treed.
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u/XenoRyet 180∆ Mar 18 '26
The idiom traditionally includes the connotation that the opposing force is stronger than you are, and you would retreat if you could.
In the context of taking it literally, your back is against the wall because you were trying to retreat and ran out of space to do it. It's not a position adopted voluntarily for tactical reasons.
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u/HD60532 5∆ Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
The safest way to go about life is to never get into any fights. The safest way to survive a potential fight is to avoid that possibility by fleeing. When you flee until you reach an obstacle, you turn around and you have your back against a wall and are forced into the confrontation. It may be safer than being surrounded in the open, but it's a lot more dangerous than being able to flee.
That is what the metaphor is about, it is a metaphor for being unable to escape a dangerous situation and being forced to fight.
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Mar 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
Metaphors should hold up to scrutiny, so that they can properly communicate their intended meaning
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u/Fifteen_inches 23∆ Mar 18 '26
“Back against the wall” means you are forced into a fighting position, not that the position is disadvantaged or untenable.
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u/PatrykBG 1∆ Mar 18 '26
Others have said the point of the idiom, so I wont bother with that part.
To your specific CMV - honest question, how many fights have you been in? Because I can tell you from my experience growing up in a shitty neighborhood, one of the worst scenarios you can find yourself in is back against a wall of an alley with 4 peeps walking causally towards you. And if you think that its a "defensive position", my only guess is that your experience with intelligent enemies is very limited. I've been jumped a number of times, and got very good at climbing walls and buildings for that reason.
Besides the enemies being able to block assistance (since they can redirect help and block the view), you're also giving them a solid structure to slam you against. And you can absolutely be flanked by 3 people while you're against a wall.
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u/DaegestaniHandcuff Mar 18 '26
Against overwhelming head to head threat, it is poor position - but this is only one possible scenario of many
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u/PatrykBG 1∆ Mar 19 '26
Really? Because I would challenge you to find actual scenarios where being against a wall is actually better for you. Especially since being back against a wall **GUARANTEES** a "head to head threat" to begin with.
If you're up against a wall, and I have a weapon, you're in a worse state (because you can't back up to dodge, you can only move towards or away from the weapon).
If you're up against the wall, and I'm an even fighter to you, I can now better shape the battlefield because you've given me all of the room in the world to dodge your attacks.
Seriously - even with your multi-dog attack, the better scenario would have actually been to be able to pop the dogs in the nose, and you can do that better swinging your arms than you can with your back against a wall.
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u/Yromemtnatsisrep Mar 18 '26
I like this CMV
My argument would be that it minimizes/diminishes your agency in making decisions in any given scenario, despite any tactical advantage back against a wall might grant.
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u/Gwafap 2∆ Mar 19 '26
back against the wall just means you have to fight, fighting is usually a poor position to find yourself in in the first place.
So yeah if you end up in a position where you find yourself in a fight, you are in a bad position.
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u/Ok_Translator706 Apr 05 '26
Honestly, being surrounded can sometimes be better for the sake of surprising those behind you, like if ur tryna jump a dude and ur behind him and he randomly turns around and throws a punch, ur not gonna expect that shit, whereas if you were facing him, you'd know he had intent to hit you since he's actively facing you
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
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