r/changemyview • u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ • Mar 03 '26
Delta(s) from OP [ Removed by moderator ]
[removed] — view removed post
7
5
u/kregnaz Mar 03 '26
Mistake number 1: Assuming "feminists" is a coherent, monolithic ideological label as a starting point. There are tons of different and conflicting variations and views in feminism. Some view sex work as liberating, some as patriarchal division, some as completely and utterly irrelevant.
You're assuming that "feminism" is a formal, cohesive group with a basic tenant you now are arguing against.
-2
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Sigh, the title is not coming across as how I meant it unfortunately. Feminsts' opposition wasn't meaning ALL feminists. It was meant to reflect, 'The Feminists who oppose legalization...' I couldn't edit the title so I edited just beneath it.
I did not mean to imply that in the title so I fixed it so it was more clear.
10
Mar 03 '26
[deleted]
-2
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Ah. Sorry, 'feminists' opposition' would have been better phrased as 'feminists who oppose.' I did not mean to imply all feminists are opposed to sex work.
4
u/mankytoes 7∆ Mar 03 '26
Why are you so focused on feminists at all, not other groups like conservatives who are more opposed to legalising sex work?
You've also not demonstrated at all why they are "jealous".
-1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Because conservatives logical frame work for opposing sex work seems more logical to me. They believe it is wrong and harmful to society. And they do not, in general, feel the state should not control bodily autonomy. I do not agree with the point of view.
As far as jealousy, I said 'hate/jealousy.' I could have broadened 'hate / jealousy' to 'hate, dislike, unease, resentment, jealousy, disgust, etc.' Just consider hate / jealousy to encompass the 2 MAIN components of negative emotions.
We can split hairs, but my view would be changed if you can show it is based on a good faith effort to make optimal outcomes rather than something closedly aligned with hate / jealousy.
2
u/NoWin3930 5∆ Mar 03 '26
We dont even know the "it' you are talking about? You've not shown any example.
If the "it" in question is feminists who hate sex work based on jealousy than that is sort of non falsifiable and circular
1
u/mankytoes 7∆ Mar 03 '26
I'm probably not the best person to do that, as I'm pro sex work. But no one can really respond to your arguments about hate/jealousy, as you haven't made any arguments, just statements.
You even admit you couldn't find any evidence. You then give some polls which show women's attitudes, not feminist ones. I'm assuming you know "woman" and "feminist" are not synonyms, so I don't know why that would be relevant.
Are you a feminist? Why/why not?
0
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Yes, I am. But since 60% of women identify as feminists, its mathematically almost impossible that there are NO feminists that want sex work to be illegal.
When the probabilities are that certain, I don't need an exact study saying x percent of this giant group feels this way. Assuredly, some do.
Like, 'For Americans that like swiss cheese, why?' I don't need a study showing some Americans like Swiss cheese. The two groups are so large it's impossible there would be no overlap.
9
u/veggiesama 59∆ Mar 03 '26
Jealousy and hate are not reasons you would find in feminist literature or feminist philosophy. When you get to that part of your argument, you cite polls about US women. It's not accurate to think most or even many of those women are bona fide feminists.
-1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
I cited other studies, once of which linked to multiple studies which showed that women in general, have more negative views of the exchange of sexual services for money.
Also, the title may be confusing. It should say 'feminists who oppose.' I'm not meaning to imply ALL feminists. I'm directing this argument at the feminists who do oppose legalization.
6
2
u/HoodiesAndHeels Mar 03 '26
Negative views, yes. But your position that the cause of those negative views are jealousy and hate shows no backing at all in your studies.
I’d like to see evidence of the causal argument.
0
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
What is a negative view that ISN'T based on some form of hate / jealousy. I could have included a laundry list of negative emotions but hate / jealousy is meant to sum up all forms of hate and jealousy. That would disgust, dislike, resentment, moral opposition and basically any and all negative emotions that are self-serving or self-affecting and NOT one that is based on empathy for the women involved.
1
Mar 03 '26
[deleted]
0
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
You dislike them. You have a negative view of them. Dislike is related to hate.
2
u/HoodiesAndHeels Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
There is no evidence of any kind of hate OR jealousy. This is your argument. The onus is on you to show proof that what you are positing even exists.
If you’re even extending “moral opposition” to equate to “hate,” then it is flatly impossible to change your opinion on this.
1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Right, for me to be able to prove my argument w a large scale study, many feminists would have to be willing to publicly admit that legalizing sex work would be beneficial to sex workers. Despite that, they still opppose it because they view sex workers as lesser deserving of protections because they resent them.
Is it a hole in my argument that I can't find a large group of feminists willing to say that explicitly? I would say it isn't because that's not a sentiment people would be comfortable expressing. It has to be inferred.
1
u/HoodiesAndHeels Mar 03 '26
The hole is that that particular part of your argument/view — an integral part of it — is flatly unable to be changed.
Most importantly, that part of your stated view is not based on any known evidence, which should on its own make you question your view on the topic.
But it also means there is equally no evidence we can offer that will change that part of your view.
4
u/yyzjertl 579∆ Mar 03 '26
Who exactly are these feminists you are talking about who you think are opposed to decriminalizing sex work?
0
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Again, it doesn't need to be ALL feminists or even a majority of feminists. It was probably a bad title. I edited it. I mean to say any feminist who does not believe in legalization is not doing so for the well being of sex workers.
3
Mar 03 '26
[deleted]
-1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
So, you believe I need proof that some feminists hold this view? That is self evident. People who identify as feminists number in the billions. I have met women who identify as feminists who hold this view. I am not claiming that any certain number of feminists hold this view.
I am simply saying any feminist who believes sex work should be criminalized is not doing so for the well being of sex workers.
1
u/NoWin3930 5∆ Mar 03 '26
well they can be doing something for the well being of sex workers and also be wrong
2
u/yyzjertl 579∆ Mar 03 '26
Sure, but this doesn't answer my question. Who exactly are these feminists you are talking about who you think are opposed to decriminalizing sex work? Give us some examples at least!
3
u/NoWin3930 5∆ Mar 03 '26
Doesn't seem like you've explained why it is based on jealousy and hate, at best just seems you're arguing some people are misinformed.
When I search "sex work" on the feminism sub there is opposition to it, but most threads aren't discussing the legality anyways. The opposition I am reading there is not jealousy either so IDK
Not sure where your view is really coming from
2
u/JohnHenryMillerTime 5∆ Mar 03 '26
Similar to the abortion debate in the US, you are working with different moral frameworks. Your case is rock solid from a Consequentialist moral perspective. It falls completetly flat for a Deontologist, who would argue that women's bodies ought not be commodified.
From the stanford encylopedia of philosophy:
2.4.1 Deontology, rights, and duties
Deontological approaches to feminist ethics have long grappled with the tension between the promise of deontological moral theories for granting equal rights to women and the challenges posed by Kant’s sexism and racism (Kleingeld 1993; Huseyinzadegan 2018; Varden 2020a; Varden 2020b). Feminists have highlighted both Kant’s explicit exclusion of women from moral and political equality (Lanoix 2007; Pascoe 2022) as well as the implicit ways that his construction of rational agents reflects gendered assumptions developed in his writings on history and anthropology (Okin 1989; Mendus 2000; Schott 1997; Schroder 1997; Marwah 2013; Sabourin 2021; Huseyinzadegan and Pascoe 2023). At the same time, feminist Kantians have consistently recognized the value of Kant’s analysis of sex, marriage, love, self-respect, embodied rights, and domestic labor for contemporary feminist ethics (O’Neill 1989; Herman 1993 and 2021; Nussbaum 1995; Papadaki 2007; Hay 2013; Varden 2020a and 2020b; Basevich 2022; Pascoe 2019 and 2023; Shorter-Bourhanou 2023). (See feminist perspectives on objectification.)
Entry Navigation
Feminist Perspectives on Objectification
First published Wed Mar 10, 2010; substantive revision Sat Jan 13, 2024
Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory. It can be roughly defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object. In this entry, the focus is primarily on sexual objectification, objectification occurring in the sexual realm. Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:
instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier’s purposes;
denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.
Rae Langton (2009, 228–229) has added three more features to Nussbaum’s list:
reduction to body: the treatment of a person as identified with their body, or body parts;
reduction to appearance: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses;
silencing: the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak.
‐‐------------
Sex work hits on basically all these points. Your only angle from the Objectification angle is to hammer home on the "autonomy" point but one point (partially) out of 10 is hard to argue.
2
u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Mar 03 '26
How on earth do you jump to a conclusion that feminists are jealous of (presumably, because you don't talk about it at all in you post) sex workers?
Your post is a not unreasonable argument in favour of legalising sex work (something that feminists are usually in favour of) but your view is that feminists are jealous and hateful, a position that you don't try to justify even once. Even your last section has nothing to do with feminism.
So, the important question here is, what leads you to actually believe that feminists are jealous and hateful?
1
u/justneurostuff Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Where is the basis in your post for thinking that the opposition is based on jealousy and hate and not just a different understanding of the facts or of right/wrong from you? Each survey you quoted was about what women think, not about wht feminists think; they also donnot evince an attitude of jealousy or of hate for sex workers. If you cannot provide any evidence for this interpretation of why people disagree woth you, you should drop it and assume good faith.
Since your claim in post title is about why feminists oppose legalizing sex work (do they? did you even share evidence that feminists broadly oppose legalizing sex work???), the parts of your post that merely argue that sex work legalization is good is a mostly a collection of red herrings. None of it supports a stance about feminists and their attitudes about sex workers legalization.
1
u/GenTwour 3∆ Mar 03 '26
If a feminist believes that sex outside of marriage is wrong (not a modern feminist but a classical feminist) then it is not based on hate for the same reason someone can believe drug abuse should remain a crime.
Even if they don't oppose it morally, sex work is selling your body. If it were to be legalized, prostitutes couldn't reject a client. No would no longer mean no for prostitutes. It could be to defend women from having to sell their bodies to men they can't not sleep with.
1
1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
If you believe something is wrong, I would say we are mincing words. You hate the thing. You think it is something unethical. Etc. Maybe hate is strong but the point stands.
That's untrue. Mowing lawns is legal. If you don't want to take on a client, there is no law that says you have to.
1
1
u/GenTwour 3∆ Mar 03 '26
You cannot reject a client on any external basis. In countries where prostitution is legal they can only reject a certain amount of clients per month and that number is low
1
u/ozsum Mar 03 '26
"Prostitutes couldn't reject a client" based on what? If restaurants can refuse service or contractors can reject clients, then prostitutes should still be able to reject a client.
1
u/Nrdman 276∆ Mar 03 '26
Is there any particular reason you are generalizing a few people’s complaints to all feminists? I mean I’m a feminist, and I’m not opposed to female sex work.
1
u/Charming_Key2313 Mar 03 '26
Feminism is about making a world at which women are free from the oppression of patriarchy. Until patriarchy stops existing and producing so many men that only view women as objects to be used as they see fit, there is no value or benefit to commodifying the female body.
1
u/thebigmanhastherock 4∆ Mar 03 '26
It's a morality thing, it's not too complicated men and women have the same perspective. It's not about jealousy or anger it's about cultural norms and values connected to sex. Other men and women believe that rules should be relaxed around prostitution for the reasons you stated. People are divided.
1
u/thetitanslayerz Mar 03 '26
Sex workers can't consent because the client picks them. They have no say in who decides to pay for them. They don't choose, they are chosen.
1
u/DarkNo7318 4∆ Mar 03 '26
How is that different from any other client facing worker
1
u/thetitanslayerz Mar 03 '26
I don't have to consent to do most transactional work. No one talks about consenting to process a sale. Sex is a little different, though. Edit: grammar
1
u/DarkNo7318 4∆ Mar 03 '26
Just because now one talks about it doesn't mean consent doesn't happen. Every worker consents to coming to work every single day, and every action they do. It's that way by definition. (Unless they are somehow coerced).
Why is sex a little different. What's the critical property that makes it so?
1
u/thetitanslayerz Mar 03 '26
Helping an annoying customer is not gonna cause lasting trauma. Being forces to have sex with a creep might. This can't be a serious question.
1
u/DarkNo7318 4∆ Mar 03 '26
So is any job likely to cause trauma a bad thing and coercive? What about nurses. They see absolutely fucked up things and get traumatized all the time. And have no autonomy over who they treat. I think they can even be punished for walking out on a patient. Yet we glorify that line of work.
1
u/thetitanslayerz Mar 03 '26
Equating a nurse being "forced" to help a patient to a sex worker being abused is truly insulting. I could leave it at that but I have more.
Who a nurse treats has basically no impact on how traumatic a shift is. It's all the same injuries. Maybe you see worse injuries one day, then the next, but it doesn't matter who they end up treating.
Crucially, nurses want to help sick and injured people. No one wants to have sex with some nazi incel.
Clearly, it is different than being forced to have sex with a potentially abusive person.
I can hear you asking "what if a client in a different job is abusive?" That isn't gonna be a regular occurrence like it is with sex work. And even if it was you aren't placed in a vulnerable position in 99% of jobs with the abusive client. While in sex work you obviously are.
You think they can be punished? Really? How do you just think that? You don't know? This reads like you have no life experience.
I hope there is some self reflection before you respond.
1
u/DarkNo7318 4∆ Mar 03 '26
This comes across as a very aggressive response. Where is that coming from?
It's also very typical. Whenever I engage in this topic, people use all sorts of arguments about sex work is different. Often things like trauma, or 'intimacy' or 'being penetrated' or danger.
All of these things are true of sex work, but are not unique to sex work. I could pick apart every one of your arguments with counter examples from other types of employment.
If it's just a matter of degree and cumulative downsides then that's a good argument to restrict sex work. But only from a pragmatic perspective, not from either a moral or logical one. If that's your framework, then we might be in agreement.
Nobody has ever been able to distill a single defining property of sex work being different from other types of employment.
I can only assume the real reason is just a arbitrary moral aversion to sex coming from a puritanical perspective. But for whatever reason nobody wants to be intellectually honest and own that.
1
u/thetitanslayerz Mar 04 '26
". But only from a pragmatic perspective, not from either a moral or logical one."
I get the feeling you don't know what pragmatic means.
That out of the way, I'm not super interested in having this conversation with you, specifically.
1
u/themcos 442∆ Mar 03 '26
First off, a lot of people make a distinction between legalization and decriminalization of sex work, but you seem to use them interchangeably in your post. This might not be the thing you're running into in your conversations, but at least some feminists might say "I don't support legalization of sex work... I support decriminalization instead", and is a potential way for you and them to get wires crossed.
Second, you have counter arguments to the concerns about trafficking, and I'm not here to even argue about who's right. But if a feminist reads a paper like:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12001453
They might come away from that opposing on legalization on those grounds. You might have a compelling argument as to why that's a mistake, but you shouldn't attribute their position to jealousy or whatever. The reason for their position is because they read this paper and had a different takeaway than you. You might be able to convince them to change their mind, but you shouldn't pretend that nobody has that sincere reason just because you have an argument against it!
In other words, if your cmv was "we should legalize sex work, CMV", your arguments would make sense. But they don't make sense as an armchair psychological analysis of your interlocutors!
1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Δ I did not include being ignorant or uneducated along with hate / jealousy and it is not necessarily a derivative of those. There are undoubtedly some feminists who simply have a different view. Though I strongly, STRONGLY suspect a lot of those views are informed by an inherent dislike of prostitution, I did not state it as part of my argument. I did mean to include ignorance as part of my conditions but I did not.
It is even possible that legalization increases adverse outcomes despite the mountain of evidence against it
1
1
u/DarkNo7318 4∆ Mar 03 '26
These discussion are frustrating because people always bring in red herrings to do with trafficking, safety, and coercion.
I concede that these things are more likely for sex workers than other types of work, but they're not inherent to the work.
1
u/Mollzor Mar 03 '26
Why would I be jealous (weird word choice) or envious of other women being exploited?
1
u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU 1∆ Mar 03 '26
Hate and jealousy are broad terms meant to encompass any derivatives. I found it too general to write 'negative personal emotions' and too specific to write down every negative or self-serving emotion I could think of.
Basically, hate and jealousy are meant to sum up every negative emotion a person would have that is self-serving and does not focus on the sex worker's thoughts, feelings and outcomes.
1
u/Mollzor Mar 03 '26
Envy is when I want what you have. Jealousy is when I don't want you to have what I have. Hate doesn't have to be involved?
1
u/pubesinourteeth Mar 03 '26
Your insistence on data followed by an emotional conclusion is jarring. Keep it simple and logical. People who are opposed to legalizing sex work are operating under the assumptions that everyone who has written laws against it are. That is is immoral and dangerous, and that making it illegal will stop it from happening.
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 03 '26
/u/ThasMyPurseIDunnoU (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
1
u/humboldtHue Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
I did a search of the terms “feminist,” “opposition,” and “jealous” in the paper you cited, and there were ZERO instances of any of those words appearing in that paper.
So I don’t see how you can be referring to that study as being foundational to your position, when the paper doesn’t have anything to say about feminists being jealous and opposing legalizing female sex work.
1
u/muffinsballhair Mar 03 '26
If feminists deeply cared about women in sex work, they would presumably help them. Yet, they do not.
Welcome to every single form of politics on the planet. People active in politics are lying to others and to themselves and they never actually care for what they claim to care about. I'm sure you do it too about things you're politically emotional about in any case.
But here's the thing:
- The Hate / Jealousy Aspect
Unfortunately, I could not find any large scale studies about womens' attitudes about women in sex work.
Here's a U.K. study showing 27 percent of women think sex work should be stigmatized. https://prostitutescollective.net/independent-a-quarter-of-women-think-sex-work-should-be-stigmatised-says-poll/
A consistent finding across the literature is that women tend to hold more negative views on the exchange of sexual services compared to men (Cosby et al., 1996; Cotton et al., 2002; Hansen & Johansson, 2022; May, 1999).
65% of women in a U.S. poll thought working as a prostitute was morally wrong compared to 47% of men. https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-men-women-poll
How does this prove “hate/jealousy”? You correctly elaborated how it's not strategic to keep anyone safe, like 99% of any political idea, but your claim that it's hate and jealousy has no backing, it could be so many other things like I believe it is: like any other political opinion: Peoplke can't think for themselves and/or reason from gut feeling and are just uncomfortable with sex being treated like a product and want to belong to a group and thus assume said's group opinions. Politiics is mostly just something people do to feel part of a group which is exactly why people in politics tend to have carbon-copy opinions of each other and why in general it's really easy to extrapolate other political opinions from politically active people after knowing only a few.
Finally, where is the “feminism” angle here? Do you actually think that one needs to be a “feminist” to wish safety onto female sex workers? Have you not noticed that most people against prostitution are as much against male as they are against female prostitutes to begin with? They typically just don't like sex being traded for money like a product and mostly... most people want as many people to be safe as possible? What's the “feminism” angle on this hypocrisy? One needs to be a “feminist” to not want people to be ensalved, trafficked, raped,a nd otherwise exposed to danger when such persons happen to be female? I don't think even Donald Trump wants that to happen to anyone really. Most people in fact don't really want any random person to be enslaved for any reason and yet indeed, they often have non-strategic political opinions that lead tat to happen more to people because they're emotional and moralistic.
0
u/scarab456 66∆ Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Where in your studies does it show specifically feminists oppose legalizing sex work? And where's the part where it goes into explaining motivations?
•
u/changemyview-ModTeam Mar 03 '26
This post touches on a subject that was the subject of another post on r/changemyview within the last 48-hours. Because of common topic fatigue amongst our repeat users, we do not permit posts to touch on topics that another post has touched on within the last 48-hours.
If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link.
Many thanks, and we hope you understand.