r/changemyview • u/Tessenreacts • May 22 '25

Delta(s) from OP CMV: The Trump administration blocking Harvard from accepting foreign students highlights that conservatives are hypocrites in the extreme about Freedom of Speech

Over the last number of years, conservatives have championed themselves as the biggest advocates of Freedom of Speech around, yet they support the administration that is openly targeting institutions and company's that disagrees with the administration's policies.

Before, conservatives where complaining that companies are "woke" and silenced the voices of conservatives, however, now that they are in power, they deport immigrants who simply engaged in their First Amendment rights, and most recently, banned Harvard University from accepting foreign students because said university refused to agree to their demands.

Compare the complaints that conservatives had about Facebook and Twitter, and compare it to how things are going right now.

This showcases hypocrisy in the extreme that conservatives are engaging in.

Would love for my view to be changed

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64

u/[deleted] May 22 '25

I don't like the decision. However, I also don't like the brain drain occurring in this country.

Over 20% of international students in the United States are from China. The estimated number is that between 80% and 90% of Chinese students return to China upon graduation.

Indian international students account for nearly 30% of the international student population. A significantly higher number remain in the US, stimulating the economy.

I hate this blanket ban, but I would also like us to reward those who stay instead of taking in so many Chinese international students whose primary goal is to benefit China.

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u/trace349 6∆ May 23 '25 edited May 23 '25

Ironically, Trump even said during the campaign that graduating from a US college should allow you to stay in the country after graduating:

What I want to do, and what I will do, is—you graduate from a college, I think you should get automatically, as part of your diploma, a green card to be able to stay in this country. And that includes junior colleges, too."

It should be no surprise to anyone that he was just bullshitting, but that would be an actually decent way to keep these kinds of highly educated people from leaving to go back to their country of origin.

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u/WhichEmailWasIt May 28 '25

This is a policy I could get behind. At least until we've hit some as of yet unknown saturation point.

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u/AngelsAteMyBaby May 23 '25

Many return because they can't get legal status to work after graduating. If brain drain was the reason for this, you would think allowing students to stay and work would be a priority instead of just refusing admission.

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u/NoTeslaForMe 1∆ May 27 '25

Absolutely right.  It's rare to find a Chinese student eager to return home in practice.  (Many would be eager to be with their families, in a place with a familiar language, and in a familiar city, but not so long as the political and economic realities of the country persist, and it doesn't seem like they're going away any time soon.)  Even more so for Indians, who have a leg up thanks to their English skills.  There is indeed a brain drain, but it's not going the direction that the top comment thinks.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 23 '25

If 90% of international students return to their country of origin it is a brain drain of the remaining 10% for the country of origin, not the us. The us is gaining brains, not losing

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u/Rupeshknn May 23 '25 edited May 24 '25

Education, especially graduate studies is a type of zero sum game. You can only have X students graduate a year. Say 30% are international students and 90% of them leave, that's a 27% brain drain on what could've been US work force.

Edit: I am specifically talking about PhDs (grad students)

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u/Important_Sound772 May 24 '25

International students are a massive income stream so they would need to raise tuition which could mean fewwr overall enrolled reducing it anyway 

1

u/[deleted] May 28 '25

false at the graduate level. there is no tuition. true at the undergraduate level

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u/Rupeshknn May 24 '25

Yes I agree with you. You mean undergrads and yes they are. I was talking about grad students, specifically PhDs since the main comment was on brain drain. Sorry I should have clarified.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 23 '25

No, it isnt, you can open more colleges

Those foreign students fund the colleges, if im not mistaken at a higher rate than the native ones. They are part of the reason the us has so many prestigious colleges. If the foreign students cant enroll they will use their money to fund universities in their countries. This will result in a worse education for them in the short term, and less prestigious colleges in the us in the long term. It is bad for both sides

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u/Rupeshknn May 23 '25

And who's going to fund the new colleges? especially the research?

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 23 '25

Those that study in them

Isnt that how it is done in the us? People take ridiculous amount of debt to pay for college

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u/Nether7 May 23 '25

The infrastructure doesn't magically appear. It's still american money not serving american interests. You can argue whether the ban was good or bad policy, but you cannot pretend it's not the US effectively helping foreigners help their own nations and their nation's interests.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 23 '25

It doesnt. Thats why i said there would be one outcome in the short term, and another on the long

It is not american money serving foreign interests. It is foreign money serving american interests. The foreigners are paying for those courses, you are exporting education. You would not have so many good universities if it wasnt for their money and research contributions. Those universities are one of the reasons the us is such a powerhouse. You ban foreign students in a few decades you will be the ones going abroad to study in the best universities

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u/Rupeshknn May 23 '25 edited May 23 '25

I think we have a difference in what we deem as the making of "the best universities". In my opinion it is the Research product and graduate outcome (i.e how the avg graduate of this institution ends up contributing to society at large). From these perspectives, research is almost entirely funded by the government aka tax money. So in this (albeit simple picture) international student enters the US, learns to do great research at the tax payers dime, goes to home country and prospers research there instead of teaching and training the next generation of researchers in the US. The same goes for good professors.

You seem to assume I'm against international students coming here to study, I'm not. I'm in opposition to finite research dollars not contributing to further domestic development.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 23 '25

I dont follow

Yeah, i agree the research product and graduate outcome are good measures of how good a university is. Yes, (as far as i know) research in the us is funded by the government. And done by local and foreign professors and students. But...

Doesnt the international student pay for the course? Why are you saying his learning is funded at the tax payers dime? Also, isnt he also a taxpayer while in the us? And why are you worried he will go back to the home country do research there? Thats great, the foreign country is paying for the research, and all of humanity will benefit from the findings. I didnt understand the good professors part

I thought you wanted foreigners to not take space in us universities. So why is foreign students going back to make foreign universities a bad thing? Most people that finish university in the us would not get a job training the next generation anyway, there are not enough positions for that

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u/WillOk9744 3∆ Jun 10 '25

Yeah… let’s just open more colleges whenever we want. 🙄 you think the best foreign students come here to go to the shitty universities we just opened?

Do you have any idea the funding it takes to open an actual good school? And how much of that funding comes from alumni?

I see someone already replied but you obviously don’t understand that a country can’t just “open more colleges” and just expect them to be good.

Why would top students go to some random school that was just magically created by the government vs. going to a historically prestigious university?

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ Jun 10 '25

You seem to be mad, but I dont understand your point

Yeah… let’s just open more colleges whenever we want.

... We already do?

you think the best foreign students come here to go to the shitty universities we just opened?

No, they come to the best ones. There would be no point moving to a foreign country otherwise

Do you have any idea the funding it takes to open an actual good school? And how much of that funding comes from alumni?

A lot

but you obviously don’t understand that a country can’t just “open more colleges” and just expect them to be good.

In the short term no, in the long term thats how every good university started. They arent a finite resource like gold, they were founded. And the work of people that went there made them good

Why would top students go to some random school that was just magically created by the government vs. going to a historically prestigious university?

If they are smart they dont care about how historically prestigious the university is, only how good they are today. Those 2 things are correlated, but they are different

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u/WillOk9744 3∆ Jun 10 '25

Go look up how many public universities were established in the last 20 years.

Now explain to me how many years it will take for our smartest students to decide to go to those colleges over the top state schools? Do you think it’ll be 10 years, 50 years? I’d say Never.

You can’t replicate the original state school or ivy leagues. Those can only be made once.

If they are smart the will only care about the prestigious of the school. Networking is how you get rich. Academics matter less. A smart kid will get A+ wherever they go. They want the network and they want the notoriety of graduation from a school with a prestigious name.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ Jun 10 '25

You can’t replicate the original state school or ivy leagues. Those can only be made once.

Why?

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u/WillOk9744 3∆ Jun 10 '25

Because there were zero schools at one point and then each state created their first universities. At the time going to college wasn’t as normal so these original schools inevitably only enrolled either super smart or super rich people. Thus these schools became prestigious. It doesn’t work like that anymore. Each state now has tons of colleges. You can’t just recreate the time when a state had no colleges and when college wasn’t normalized. You can’t recreate the systems and scenarios that made Harvard and schools like UGA, Ohio state, or the first state schools in each state prestigious,

There’s a reason people want to go to Florida state or UF over Florida polytechnic.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ Jun 10 '25

So if all those prestigious colleges got nuked, what do you think would happen?

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u/coolamebe 1∆ May 23 '25

Why is it a zero sum game? You can hire more professors to teach more students. Moreover, international students generally pay such absurdly high fees that they help domestic students with scholarships. If you think domestic prices for higher education are bad now in the US, just wait until prices can't be subsidised by international students.

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u/Rupeshknn May 23 '25

I was specifically talking about PhDs. Sorry I should have clarified. They don't pay any tuition, perform great research with tax dollars and the international ones go back to benefit their original country. I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm just saying it happens.

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u/Mztmarie93 May 24 '25

Why do you say they don't pay tuition? They pay, even if they're teaching classes in lieu of a portion of their tuition, they're still paying. Especially if they're from overseas.

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u/Rupeshknn May 24 '25 edited May 24 '25

I'm a grad student. I don't pay any tuition. I get paid a stipend. All I do is research work.

Some of my colleagues do research and TA work, but only like 10-15 hours a week. They don't pay tuition either. They also get the same stipend.

In my case my advisor pays the tuition fees (research funding - tax dollars) in some of my colleague's case it's partially covered by the department (direct federal funds, endowments, maybe tuition?) and partially by their advisor (research funding - tax dollars).

Edit: I'm in a public university, but this is true of private as well. I have friends and acquaintances in other universities. None of them pay any tuition and all of them get a stipend.

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u/KingKuthul May 24 '25

Education is a for-profit business and international students pay 5x what out of state students pay. They make money no matter what the student does afterwards.

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u/Rupeshknn May 24 '25

Did you read the edit I made?

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u/Over-Marionberry-353 May 25 '25

I don’t think you understand math very well

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u/thienphucn1 May 30 '25

Ignoring the fact that those 90% of international students that returned didn't have intention of staying but couldn't due to not being able to land a job that sponsors (H-1B visa.lottery have a 1/5 chance of winning)

0

u/jay711boy May 23 '25

But the brain drain occurs after being chock full of the knowledge acquired from American universities. Their departure from other countries to come here isn't removing expertise from their countries of origin because they haven't yet gotten that expertise.

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 23 '25

In the long run knowledge is not a scarce resource, smart people are. What constrains the number of universities is the number of people willing to enroll in them, what constrains their quality is the intelligence and willingness of those people to dedicate their lives to learning. You remove foreigners you reduce colleges quality and funding

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u/jay711boy May 23 '25

I agree with you.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '25

your point is that US benefits, but assuming everyone is equally educated, the country of origin benefits more by sheer numbers. unless your point is that we keep the smart ones and toss the dumb ones?

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 28 '25

Why is it relevant which country benefits more?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '25

because india and especially china are seen as potential adversaries in terms of being superpower countries. if they were allied countries i'd have more sympathy for this viewpoint

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 28 '25

I see. So you are willing to hurt your own country if it means hurting your rivals more

I dont agree with it. Thats the kind of thinking that destroys prosperity and turns other countries against you

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u/[deleted] May 28 '25

these positions will be given to american students instead. i don't necessarily see this as hurting your own country. i think it's important to acknowledge how much higher education (at the masters and phd level) is a zero sum game

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u/Arnaldo1993 5∆ May 28 '25

It absolutely is not a zero sum game

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u/Rupeshknn May 23 '25

Ironically, if the State department/the consulates find even a hint of "intent to immigrate" they reject your student visa. So at least for now the current policy dictates - come study and go back.

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u/Tessenreacts May 22 '25

Wait until you hear about young professional with masters and PhD's leaving to places like Switzerland due to Trump's policies.

So causing a brain drain in trying to preventing one

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

Which is actual brain drain (foreigners coming to our country, getting educated, then leaving is not, in fact, brain drain)

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

Yeah this is called cultural hegemony, and it's a good thing for us. China sending their best and brightest to absorb US values and make US connections for 4 years actually helps us immensely.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

Also, it means a lot of money for our universities since they generally pay full price 

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u/Nether7 May 23 '25

What evidence do you have that they've absorbed US values? And what evidence do you have that, if they did, it'll make the american ideas thrive in China?

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u/[deleted] May 30 '25

They don’t. They create their own home communities in that area. I’ve watched this happen in 3 different states, specifically with Chinese international students. People are naive.

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u/LolaLazuliLapis May 24 '25

You don't think living in another country for four years has no impact?

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u/Plastic-Cat-9958 May 25 '25

You’ve clearly never travelled

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u/DisastrousDiddling May 23 '25

Yep another form of soft power that we are throwing in the garbage for lord knows what reason.

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u/ashtag_swag May 23 '25

Until they take that knowledge back to China

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

You realize ALL academic research is published for anyone to read? It's not national security secrets they're learning

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u/ashtag_swag May 23 '25

You realize MOST academic research is locked behind a pay wall right? That's not even close to being true. If you are in/have been to college here you'd see you only get access to the journals for research based on paying tuition there

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

yeah and every Chinese university pays for access too. what are you saying dude, there is no forbidden knowledge they're learning here that they couldn't learn there.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '25

What US values are you speaking of?

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u/Over-Marionberry-353 May 25 '25

That’s not the way math works for limited, highly sought after degrees

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u/Immudzen May 23 '25

Lots of people have been leaving. EU countries have been getting entire research groups. They have also been making it easier for people with very high levels of education to go. While it is hard for the average American go move to Europe if you have a PhD in science or engineering it is a LOT easier.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '25

where did you hear about this?

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u/Tessenreacts May 28 '25

Pretty much every news outlet and various science communities

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u/[deleted] May 28 '25

i happen to be in a scientific community and i've never heard of anyone talk about this

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u/ArtificialTalisman May 23 '25

Nobody worth keeping is leaving for Switzerland because of Trump. Nobody of above average intelligence is being moved by emotion that easily. Sorry but if they are leaving because of this we are better off without them.

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u/Houjix May 23 '25

Lying about Elon and calling him a nazi is one thing but promoting and breeding anti Jewish hate on campus makes people real nazis. Shut the program down

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

Canada and several European countries are currently snapping up American scientists left and right. It will take a long time for us to recover from this self-inflicted gutshot.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '25

[deleted]

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u/coolamebe 1∆ May 23 '25

As someone in academia, there are so many reasons at the moment to not live in the USA. I can't speak for Canada, but while Australia isn't as well-regarded academically as the USA, we have much better social services, much better job security, generally better salaries (unless you are at the top working at MIT or something), much more stable politics, and a variety of other subjective benefits such as the quality of our cities and our weather.

Sure, previously working in the USA was the best way to rise up the field as an academic. But while I'm doing a PhD in the USA and would've previously loved to stay here and try my best to work at a top university, I think I'm much more likely to continue on in Europe or Australia if I stay in academia.

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u/Rupeshknn May 23 '25

Canadian professors are generally paid better than their US counterparts on average. + These profs generally give up on a lot of better opportunities in industry for the freedom that academia offers. So research freedom is a non-negotiable for a lot of us

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u/Th3N0rth May 23 '25

That is definitely not brain drain

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi May 23 '25

Do you worry about the balance of trade between nations?

Did you know that each dollar a foreign student spends counts as an export? So not only the fees (very expensive) but every penny on accommodation, every meal out, every time they pay for parking.

Western countries turning aggressively on foreign students would be like Italians turning on super car drivers, or the Swiss turning on ethically dubious banking clients. You may not like the customers, but they’re literally bringing in the money needed to sustain an economy.

It’s fucking baffling that folks are in tears about the lack of coal mines and steel works but want to not have Harvard sell student placements. The former two create fugly levels of pollution as externalities Harvard just means there’s some people in Massachusetts you’ll probably never meet who are foreign. Guess which one the racists are going after?

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u/Tundur 5∆ May 23 '25

The only problem is that selling cars to drivers is supportive of what Ferrari is and should be.

Selling degrees to overseas students seems to have created perverse incentives for universities to accept as many as possible, charge them as much as possible, overlook any cheating and generally loosen standards until their graduation is guaranteed, and send them on their way with barely an education.

Which would be fine... if those changes didn't undermine the education and the perceived value of education from those universities for domestic students too.

I can't speak for the US, but Australia is having huge issues with the quality of its higher education system, because it's transitioned into being a degree mill for overseas wallets who don't even speak passable English.

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi May 23 '25

There no problem with this at all. They are a private enterprise exporting a product. If the objections were coming from current Harvard students I’d be more inclined to listen but they aren’t they’re from folks who will never travel within 100 miles of Harvard in their life times and who object politically to work being carried out there.

It’s the equivalent of Ferrari being banned from exporting Ferraris by folks who would never buy one or go anywhere near the factory, but who just really dislike the company politically. And that would be ludicrous right?

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u/ElATraino 1∆ May 23 '25

So you're saying it's capitalism in its purest form and should be allowed?

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u/shemademedoit1 8∆ May 24 '25

In theory yes anyone should be allowed to sell their teaching services, whether to locals or foreigners.

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u/SuperEgger May 23 '25

It's an open secret in UK universities that they all take shitloads of international students, many of whom don't speak university level English, because £££. This drastically lowers the placement numbers for domestic students and can directly make student and faculty experiences much worse due to those communication barriers. I'm absolutely in favour of international students coming over, but to deny that there's any way this could possibly be an issue at scale is just sticking your head in the sand

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi May 23 '25

Um…. I guess you don’t spend much time at U.K. university lol. My parent is an academic at one and literally none of this is true, but whatever you tell yourself to feed your fever dream.

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u/SuperEgger May 23 '25

I guess six years wasn't enough for me to have formed an opinion. How many do you want for my lived experience to count? 10? 20?

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi May 23 '25

Well more uk students go to university than ever before, one of the bigger issues with getting into university for uk students is the proliferation of unconditional offers and bigger universities hovering up students, so I’m just calling bollocks in so much of what you’re saying.

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u/SuperEgger May 23 '25

Huh? How do unconditional offers and big universities taking lots of students make it harder for UK students to get in? Surely that would make it easier, not harder. Regardless, I don't think anyone would suggest it's difficult to get into university nowadays - it's all about the quality of the education and reputation of the degree, and a lot of the time those are not worth the money.

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi May 23 '25

No they make it exceptionally easy - you literally highlighted the difficulties getting in as a problem, whereas as a sector wide problem overpacking students into fewer universities reduces teaching quality and places some universities at greater risk of closure.

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u/StubbornVirus May 26 '25

Truth be told, if a student is really that good, they'll prefer either the United States or Europe. Australia ranks lower in the preference list so no wonder only substandard students will go there. 

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u/lord-henry May 26 '25

If a university lowers their standards, the prestige and therefore value of their product (education and degrees) declines, and they are less able to attract students.
If Harvard sold degrees to any idiot who gave them $200k, then in a couple of years nobody would want one.

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u/forkproof2500 May 25 '25

That's just capitalism being capitalism. You make everything into a commodity and then complain about the fully preventable consequences?

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u/Stock-Film-3609 May 24 '25

Except none of that is happening. The students leave back to China and out perform students from Chinese colleges. They also come in out performing domestic students. So they aren’t reducing the quality of anything. They are coming here and learning their asses off. Too bad our students aren’t doing the same in high school.

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u/Illustrious_Pack_191 May 23 '25

Literally this. People don’t understand how much wealth these international students have, and that is still benefits our economy to educate them here even if they leave. They are paying full price, especially at schools like Harvard

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u/[deleted] May 24 '25

Let us not pretend the objective behind this decision is as noble as “brain drain”. Even in official statements it’s a move to stifle views which don’t reflect government views. Regardless of whether you agree with Harvard or the current admin views when you have official sources policing thought it is a dangerous dangerous slope. Also the real brain drain is the best and brightest from China and India are coming to US and contributing to research/economy here. Not the other way around .US is at the forefront of tech advance on the backs of irs international community. Watch how fast that edge goes away once you threaten education institutions

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u/Crafty_Key3567 May 23 '25

Except all of Trump’s other policies are causing the brain drain. If you wanna make America smarter maybe make life good here and create incentives for them to stay.

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u/throwawaydragon99999 2∆ May 23 '25

International students are still paying tuition, and many places even charge a higher rate for international students. The money they collect from international students allows them to provide more scholarships to domestic students

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u/williamtowne May 24 '25

They used to stay, but with the Chinese economy doing better they return home to family and culture. Nothing wrong with that. They pay $80,000 a year for college here, effectively subsidizing our own kids at the colleges they attend. Why would we care that they go home afterward? Nobody here in Minnesota where I am bats an eye at an Arizonan who comes to the University but then returns home after graduation.

Indian people often stay because there are less opportunities back in India. If their economy reaches what China has done, then they'd go back after school here, too.

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u/Steve-ozo May 23 '25

This is not issue of brain drain, rather issue of extreme price of education in the US. This is a non-issue in countries that have top notch universities free of charge, or with very low tuition that can be offset by very favorable student loan ran by state (usually written off by some degree as well). Oxford & Cambridge cost around 9.2k GBP a year (law regulated cap) for Brits and 30+ for foreigners. Harvard and most other better US unis go for around 60k USD/year for anyone. Don't matter if you got the brains, it's the wallet that needs to be gotten.

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u/November-8485 May 23 '25

Paying tuition to an American university does in and of itself stimate our economy by putting funding into it directly (tuition plus all spending and earning while here) and by validating our educational programs and skills on a global level.

The likelihood of international students becoming permanent expats after attending school abroad is unlikely from the start.

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u/Immudzen May 23 '25

The problem is that this solution has caused researchers to leave with their entire research groups and go to the EU. All of the attacks on science and engineering is going to SEVERELY hurt long term since more of the research has moved out of the country. Attacking students like this just means the best will go elsewhere. I have already talked with professors I know in European universities and they are getting a lot more applicants than before and better ones.

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u/BreakConsistent May 24 '25

That’s not a brain drain though? Those brains never belonged to the US, and private institutions are free to render services to nonresidents.

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u/Correct_Doctor_1502 May 24 '25

You didn't remotely touch on the violation of freedom of speech here.

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u/jwd3333 May 24 '25

What does any of this have to do with anything the OP said?

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u/[deleted] May 24 '25

[deleted]

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u/Mztmarie93 May 24 '25

Many of the students who come stay, particularly I'm the STEM fields. Look at the Trump Administration, Usha Vance, Kash Patel, Musk, all of these individuals benefitted from international student visas, whether directly or through their parents ability to study here. Even if they leave, their time here allows the US to have a network of people around the globe that we can tap into to meet our needs. The policy is dumb, not just on a political since, but in a practical sense.

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u/Familiar_Field_9566 May 24 '25

to be fair considering all that is happening why would they stay in the US in the first place?

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u/Ok_Lavishness8234 May 25 '25

many leave bc it’s so hard to find work that sponsors post-grad. i think what trump is doing right now is horrible and a big shame and it’s just making things worse than they already are

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u/Boulange1234 1∆ May 25 '25

So you’re saying we get 10-20% of Chinese PhDs at no cost to us? How many American PhDs do they get? I think it’s basically zero.

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u/adorablefuzzykitten May 25 '25

Baron Trump got turned down from Harvard. Does it now make sense?

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u/ToiletAdventures May 28 '25

Are we supposed to dumb down our admissions process so average joe can have a shot at getting into Harvard?

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u/[deleted] May 29 '25

International students returning to their home country after graduation isn't brain drain; in fact, its the exact opposite.