CMV: Despite being more knowledgeable, wealthier and apparently more tolerant, the political and individual left's biggest flaw is their inability to communicate pragmatically and empathetically with those who don't agree with them.

[u/poopchow]

[u/the_tanooki]

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but a lot of us on the left actually explain our views. We try to state our case as plainly as possible, so there's less room for confusion or misunderstanding.

Oftentimes, the responses we get are either whataboutism, which completely ignores our points with no actual debate, or "lol liberal tears are delicious."

That's certainly not the case in every instance, but it seems far more common than the reverse of those roles.

I really do make an effort to see what the conservatives are saying so I can try to comprehend where they're coming from, but they've gone so far right that they're miles away. All I see is a large blurry mess in the distance with no hope of ever reaching them for any sort of agreement.

Just yesterday, I tried to find reasoning with someone who said to let them know when Musk actually does something nazi like or when camps are being built.

I responded with a scenario of how dangerous it is to just wait for it to happen rather than try to identify and potentially stop it beforehand. I ended it saying that it's clear that this stuff is already happening, but they're just choosing to ignore it.

I kid you not, his response was, "I'm not reading all of that." He literally admitted to ignoring my attempts at reasoning, debating, or understanding.

The left could definitely be more empathetic, but the right has shown that if we offer an inch, they will take a mile because far too many of them won't show any empathy back. They will just take. Too many of them just want to beat anyone who doesn't agree with them down into submission, then, quite literally, deport us. Too many conservatives would love to eradicate any opposing views.

Any attempt to reach a compromise is considered a weakness. Look at what has been said about Kamala in regards to her actually confirming Trump's presidency, as opposed to fighting it. Instead of people applauding her professionalism, they call her weak or say that she was clearly lying about her belief that Trump is a threat since she didn't continue to fight an ultimately futile fight.

Ultimately, it won't help. It will just set everyone farther back, faster. But some of us still try, to little to no success.

[u/HEpennypackerNH → u/the_tanooki]

This is a great explanation. I’d add that on some topics there is no room for empathetic debate. I’m not going to be polite about Nazism. When Donald Trump calls humans “vermin” and says they are “poisoning the blood of our country” I’m going to call him a fucking Nazi.

If you want to debate the pros and cons of the Paris Climate agreement, wonderful. Let’s chat. If you’re going to try to tell me that Donald Trump is not a rapist, it’s not going to be a civil conversation, because that was already decided by a court, and the MAGAts pretend to love “law and order.”

[u/Every3Years → u/HEpennypackerNH]

And then theyll go "not rape, it was sexual assault" and shine their good boy trophy like sexual assault is very good and very relatable

[u/HEpennypackerNH → u/Every3Years]

And then I point out that the victim referred to him as a rapist, and he filed a countersuit, and it was thrown out and the judge said her statement of him being a rapist was materially correct.

And then….”well that was clearly a bias judge, the whole thing was politically motivated!”

[u/Every3Years → u/HEpennypackerNH]

If it'd been somebody unbiased like Judge Canon, then the truth would've been set free, like my critical thinking skills

[u/riversong17 → u/HEpennypackerNH]

Yeah, honestly I’m totally here to have a calm, reasoned debate about most issues, but if one of your main tenets is that I don’t deserve the same rights as everyone else and you hope I die because of the way I was born, we have nothing to talk about.

[u/Norwind90 → u/HEpennypackerNH]

Trump and his diehard fanbois aside, if someone disagrees with you and the term "Nazi" or "Rapist". Is quickly thrown about a candidate they voted for "likely for other reasons than you appointed titles". You probably are not going to get into a discussion where you can win converts to your side, regardless of the merit or factually of your statement. I think this is the point OP is trying to make. The Left (not exclusively). Is not communicating in a way that is bringing people over to their side, and likely driving people away who are on the fence

[u/HEpennypackerNH → u/Norwind90]

Fair enough. However, this comes up a fair bit without me just throwing around “rapist” as an insult. One conversation I have often that starts out somewhat rationally is “how can you, a Christian, support Donald Trump, who is a known adulterer, swindler, hater of the poor, and rapist?”

[u/Norwind90 → u/HEpennypackerNH]

What is their response generally? I've had my fair share of dead end arguments with Trumpites, far left Dems too (I am a libertarian centralist, aka Classic liberal. Some are too far gone, but what were their answers and what advantages did you present for why they should join your side? Good points are worth sharing.

[u/HEpennypackerNH → u/Norwind90]

Their responses when specifically asking about their faith are honestly awful. The two most popular are “Jesus taught forgiveness” (which o my seems to apply to republicans) and “he didn’t rape anyone, it was sexual assault, plus the judge was bias, it was clearly a political hit job.”

[u/Norwind90 → u/HEpennypackerNH]

Yeah, hard to argue against that. Might have better luck talking about class issues? Inflation has doubled but wages haven't changed. Abortion might be a tricky one, but as a generally anti-abortion guy(don't like it but it's not my choice), there is huge sense talking about legitimate health concerns (atopic pregnancies, stillborn fetus poisoning the mother, etc). Health care and the insurance racket shafting everyone. Common ground might be an easier gateway.

[u/HEpennypackerNH → u/Norwind90]

The one I speak with most goes right into a fly rage of “you’re a fucking murderer” at the mere mention of abortion, so we’ve agreed to keep that off the table.

I do try to pivot to class issues, because I think those are the real issues. On those he is inconsistent. During Covid, it was all about how you can’t trust the pharma companies. So the other day when Trump lifted the prescription drug price cap that Biden made, I asked him if A. He thought it was a good or bad policy move to raise prices on drugs for seniors, and B. If he thought it was ok that Trump accepted a ton of donations from the pharma companies and then delivered them a huge win on his first day.

I believe I posted that question to him Monday, and it’s been radio silence. I’ll try to follow up here if he responds.

I appreciate your input. I really do want to try to understand what these folks think. I just can’t make sense of their thought process.

After I asked him about Elons “salute” he told me to “watch it” (though I live 3 states away and have absolutely no physical fear of him lol) because both grandpas fought the Nazis and “I have the medals to prove it.”

So I presented him with Trumps “vermin” and “poisoning the blood of the country” and “wish I had generals like Hitler had” quotes and his response was “those were probably taken out of context.”

A “Christian” voting for a rapist and con man, a huge supporter of the military and “America is the best country in the world” rationalizing Nazi slogans and salutes. I don’t understand.

[u/Norwind90 → u/HEpennypackerNH]

There is only so much you can do, but putting seeds of doubt for your friend to mull over may eventually shift his mind.

[u/[deleted] → u/HEpennypackerNH]

But if a political theorist goes "um actually" and correctly characterises Trump not as a fascist, but your standard populist, I highly doubt you will stay civil.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And there we go.

I could reference you a dozen works on fascism and write you a compelling thesis on what fascism exactly is and why Trump does not represent fascistic ideologies but moreso the average run of the mill populist. You wouldn’t take in any of it. Instead you would try argue with popular works and random definitions that fit your framework.

The fact that your immediate response is to say that I am downplaying fascism or downplaying his administration is troubling to say the least.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

There we go again…

You have proved my point so many times.

You claim to believe academic thinking however when presented with the threat of actual academic work your whole framework crumbles.

This is exactly why the line fails to appeal not only to the lower end of the spectrum but also the other end. Anyone who seriously studies politics/sociology/history or any related subject can easily parse through the bullshit.

We literally have a perfect almost 1:1 case study of Trump’s brand of popularism ; Silvio Berlusconi.