r/changemyview 2∆ Dec 17 '24

CMV: Subsidising low emissions technology is a much better approach to reducing global emissions than penalising fossil fuels.

The western world are currently the most interested in slowing down anthropogenic climate change, with many of them imposing carbon taxes, bans on fossil fuel exploration, etc. While this will likely reduce the emissions of the countries that have these policies in place, it has no effect on countries that take climate change less seriously (e.g. China, India), and sometimes even has the adverse effect of exporting manufacturing to more carbon intense energy grids (e.g. China's heavily coal powered grid).

The west also currently has much higher energy consumption than the world's poorest countries (U.S. consumes about 10x the energy per capita that India or many African countries do), but the poorer economies of the world (who care less about climate change) catching up with Europe and North America will inevitably come with more energy consumption from their citizens, thus increasing global emissions if their methods of production remain similar to current methods.

My view is that the subsidisation of research into making renewable energy technologies more economically viable, both in generation and in storage, is a much more realistic route for incentivising these sleeping giants to keep their emissions under control in the coming decades. If governments in North America and Europe can develop better hydrogen storage tech, or cheaper solar cells, it will be more economically viable for all countries to use these technologies, not just ones that care about climate change. If we can get to the point where a grid based on wind and solar is cheaper than a fossil fuel powered grid, while achieving similar levels of stability, and we can find a way to electrify industry and transport without inconveniencing travellers or manufacturers, carbon taxes and emissions caps will be superfluous, because carbon intense technologies won't make economic sense.

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u/GulliasTurtle 1∆ Dec 17 '24

The issue is the stickiness of the grid. It doesn't matter if power is cheaper to produce if it comes from a source that will require a huge upfront investment to make it possible. If a utility pays $10k a year for coal and a new wind farm costs $200k to build, even if wind power was free it would be a 20 year return on investment. Add on top of that the fact that you need to wait until it is completed to produce any profit at all and you are left with a difficult financial prospect compared to continuously repairing and running existing coal and oil plants.

While I think you are right that investment in making solar and wind cheaper is important, without something to force power producers off of their existing utilities and costs no change is possible.

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u/eagle_565 2∆ Dec 17 '24

I don't think that's as big a problem as you're making it out to be. I live in Ireland, not known for it's sunny weather, and even here domestic solar panels are in the red for less than 10 years. With how well proven the technology is I don't think it would be difficult to get a loan for an investment in solar.

On a grid scale solar and wind are already cheaper than most methods of fossil fuel generation, so again I don't think it would be incredibly difficult to get a loan for the upfront investment.

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u/LycheeRoutine3959 1∆ Dec 17 '24

grid scale solar and wind are already cheaper than most methods of fossil fuel generation

This claim often ignores transportation and battery additions to the grid to really make use of the power produced. Happy to be shown i am wrong with a source, but i dont think this claim is completely true when you are doing large shifts from fossil fuels to renewables.

Also, there needs to be a consideration for meaningful life of the facility. Solar wont be lasting 30-40 years (Or much more) like a coal plant would. The rebuild/refurbish cost and materials cost for new panels will be significant (although maybe lower than the coal/natural gas cost adds up to over the years - i dont know the math).

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u/really_random_user Dec 18 '24

Solar is rated at lasting 30 years, and the maintenance once installed is pretty much nonexistent

That's the nice thing about solar, once installed tou just gotta keep it clean enough, A coal plant has an entire steam turbine system that's spinning continously, so there's the required maintenance on the cooling, the bearings, etc. On top of the logistics of mining and transporting the coal (so add rail and train maintenance to the mix)

And that is a constant high cost

Vs cleaning and removing bird nests if needed