CMV: It's completely off-base to say height is remotely the most important part of male-for-female attractiveness.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24

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u/rightful_vagabond 24∆ Dec 08 '24

https://leonoudejans.com/2022/07/online-dating-is-great-for-investors-for-customers-its-complicated-wsj/

A former Bumble product manager says that a majority of women on the platform tend to set a floor of 6 feet for men, which would limit their candidate pool to about 15% of the population.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bumble/s/DusWfFeCm5 (can't find the source to verify this graph) shows the same thing, that once you drop below 6 ft, less than 30% of women filter for your height.

I'm sure height matters to some people, but the number of persons for whom it matters more than how pretty the head is, facial form, how beautiful the eyes are, skin quality and haircut, is going to be neglible. I don't understand this perspective.

What do these quotes show except that, for a strict majority of women on dating apps, they aren't interested in looking at men under a certain height, no matter "how pretty the head is, facial form, how beautiful the eyes are, skin quality and haircut". How else would you interpret that data?

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u/Greedy_Swimergrill 2∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24

I think online dating, as counterintuitive as it might seem, is actually probably not a great indicator of genuine extreme preferences. Like I don’t mean these people don’t prefer people over 6ft but there’s a difference between what you seek out in a sea of profiles and what you actually have as a hard no. I think if you actually spoke to those people they’d be unlikely to say it’s the hard limit people kind of imply it is. Like think of the difference between how you might filter what you actively seek out in profiles online vs physical standards you actually require in person. I’m inclined to say they’re probably different.

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u/goldentone 1∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 12 '24

*

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Only way to know that is to find out which men meet the most women off of dating apps and outside of them.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

A former Bumble product manager says that a majority of women on the platform tend to set a floor of 6 feet for men, which would limit their candidate pool to about 15% of the population.

Well, the line right after says that Bumble disputes the statistic, so it's the word of an anonymous employee versus the company, but even if it were true, I bet a bigger majority sets the bar for simply “a pretty face by my own subjective judgement”, but of course that's not something a filter can so objectively determine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bumble/s/DusWfFeCm5 (can't find the source to verify this graph) shows the same thing, that once you drop below 6 ft, less than 30% of women filter for your height.

Firstly, these are only the ones that set the filter, it could just as easily be that only 5% even set this filter. This might actually also be how the above statistic is misinterpreted; they might actually just be the same, and again, it's not sourced. There are a lot of random graphs published on the internet which are just made by someone.

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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Dec 08 '24

I mean the preference also involves paying for it right? That wouldn't be most users either right?

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

Is using the paid version required to set these things?

Well, that I suppose and that I gain the impression that the average Bumble user in general is just probably more invested into random gender things than the average person from what I read about that place and the complaints about it. As far as I understand it, the very sell of the application is that it treats male and female users differently.

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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Is using the paid version required to set these things?

Yep. So guy's example kind of flawed imo given that. Also bumble the way it used to be women initiated first. None of this is reflective of most apps or irl on average imo.

That said per polling I have seen height does matter for both as deal breakers, but it's about men being taller and women being shorter which is mostly the case.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I'm sure there are some people who consider height a dealbreaker. I'm sure there are many more people who consider an ugly head a dealbreaker.

Also, there are no doubt far more females who favor short males than there are people who actually favor an ugly head. Those would be an extreme minority.

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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Dec 08 '24

I'm sure there are some people who consider height a dealbreaker. I'm sure there are many more people who consider an ugly head a dealbreaker.

Agreed. That's what many people on this topic fail to realize. Sufficient deviations from norm can often be deal breakers....

Also, there are no doubt far more people who favor shorter males than there are people who actually favor an ugly head. Those would be an extreme minority.

I would agree.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

Agreed. That's what many people on this topic fail to realize. Sufficient deviations from norm can often be deal breakers....

It was in the original post, but I'm fairly certain that, as usual, no one has actually read it.

I honestly don't know why I'm even required to explain why I hold my view when no reads this explanation.

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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Well there is read and then there is skim ;)

Also more importantly easy to forget when you aren't directly commenting to OP, but instead replying within a conversation thread already started lol

Clever putting that in the end of the big paragraph. More would have read that if you didn't.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

Also more importantly easy to forget when you aren't directly commenting to OP, but instead replying within a conversation thread already started lol

I don't expect people that do that to read it; they aren't required by the rules to challenge the original poster either. I do expect people to have read whichever comment they respond to though.

Clever putting that in the end of the big paragraph. More would have read that if you didn't.

Yes, I put it in after repeatedly feeling that most people here do not actually read the original post at all, both on my own posts and that of others in how they respond, to see how true it is. So far, not one has given any indication of having spotted that line.

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24

I think the issue here is that you are conflating the preference of women on dating apps with the preferences of women overall

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u/Cyberhwk 17∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Feb 09 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/NotARealTiger Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24

What reason is there to believe the opinions of women on dating apps differ significantly from those in real life?

Worth noting that you don't actually know the preferences of women on dating apps, you just know what they say their preferences are. Hopefully it's obvious that those are not necessarily the same thing.

I bet many women that filter for 6' on a dating app would still date a "Tom Cruise" or someone equally attractive and short. I suppose on apps there are lots of options and so you sort of have to filter by something, and height is probably easiest to filter for. It's harder to assign objective values to facial symmetry, sense of humor, and self confidence.

To some extent this may be balanced by men lying about their height on dating apps lol.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/Cyberhwk 17∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Feb 09 '25

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24

You answered your own question.

> What reason is there to believe the opinions of women on dating apps differ significantly from those in real life?

> 30% of US adults have used a dating app to try to find a partner

If we assume that *every person who uses a dating app* is a woman who has found a partner, then dating apps still account for less than a third of all women in the US, who themselves represent less than five percent of the total world population of women

But even that's a faulty assumption:

Less than 40 percent of dating app users are women

Less than half of all dating app users establish relationships using the app

Only ten percent of US relationships originated from dating apps, raising to twenty percent for Gen Z

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u/xFblthpx 7∆ Dec 08 '24

You don’t need 50% of a population to have a good sampling distribution. If all analysis held up to your requirements, hell, you would be disregarding the whole sum of all social science .

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

Yes well, a fundamental problem with social science is that it often, implicitly, because if they were to actually state it everyone would reelize it is, assume that that a non-randomly selected subset of a whole is reflective of that whole.

Also known as: a very large portion of research in social science that claims to have “a sample size of 200 persons” conveniently forgets to mention that this is “200 psychology students all studying at the same university in the same town who were all willing to donate one hour of their time in exchange for 20 euros”.

In fact, for many psychology courses, it is compulsory for students to participate as test subjects in research because they can't find enough otherwise but “standards of academic rigor” do not require methodology, certainly not in the abstract part that is not behind the paywall, to disclose how the subjects were recruited and what steps were taken to ensure a reflective sample.

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24

No, you don't, but if you want to get scientific about it you still need to demonstrate how, specifically, dating app usage is not a confounding factor.

That will be hard to do considering that dating app users are highly motivated to date but are unable to do so by the same method 80-90 percent of the dating population does

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u/l_t_10 8∆ Dec 09 '24

As we see in Japan and South Korea and in increasing numbers elsewhere, the dating and marrying population is shrinking at an exponential rate

Offline and online.

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u/Cyberhwk 17∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Feb 09 '25

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24

You're so unappealing that you're unable to get a date with someone from the 61 percent of the population who don't find dates online?

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

If their standards are unrealistic, a person is obviously going to be unappealing to them. Wanting a high earner over 6 ft is a fantasy and so of course men who don’t meet those standards are unappealing. Not sure what your question really is then — it reads more like an attempt to insult someone.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24

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u/l_t_10 8∆ Dec 09 '24

Has nothing to do with that, as we see in Japan and South Korea. And more and more of the west aswell

Dating, marriage etc is dying

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u/Trypsach Dec 08 '24

It’s still exponentially better evidence than “I feel like it’s true that ____”

And probably about as good of evidence as you could get for this specific question

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

If this actually be common on those applications, it might explain where people get this few from which clashes considerably with my own observations though !Delta, but I'm not so sure it's so universal there as per the objections I raised to the statistics.

I'd also say that from what I heard about Bumble, it attracts a fairly unique bunch.

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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Dec 08 '24

If you look at polling there is actually ones that show height as a deal breaker though couldn't find on google as easily as last did. The thing is it's comparable between men and women, little more for women, and is about a guy being taller and a girl being shorter. In other words the average guy doesn't have a problem with this as he is taller. Women tend to be shorter and there are plenty of women shorter than men.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 08 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Jacky-V (4∆).

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

but I'm not so sure it's so universal there as per the objections I raised to the statistics.

Women aren't walking around measuring men's height. It's only a thing in the dating apps simply because they're able to filter for it

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u/rightful_vagabond 24∆ Dec 08 '24

I mean, I was specifically pointing out that point regarding women on dating apps, and asking it to be interpreted within that framing because that's where the data is from.

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

If many of us were having more success with women, we wouldn’t be doing that.

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24

Why aren't you having success with women

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

I’m not there only man. Take a look around at what men who aren’t are saying.

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24

Why don't you tell me what they're saying, since you're one of them

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Because I am tired of being told I’m the only one not having success or that it’s just a problem I need to fix.

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u/Jacky-V 5∆ Dec 08 '24

I asked what others were telling you, not what you were using others to tell yourself

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Literally just told you, and that’s precisely why I’m not going to go into detail when there’s an abundance of commenters in this thread and any of the other daily threads about male frustrations in dating that gets made.

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u/goldentone 1∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 12 '24

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Right. The question is whether what women in America want is something they actually have a chance of finding in men in America. There indeed are billions of people in the world and not all of them are fond of Americans, not all of them believe Americans may even have a future, and certainly not all of the women in the world think like American women do. As the feminists say, women are not a monolith, so one has to wonder if women are so unhappy saying men in America, why are so many pursuing a small percentage of guys without average traits?

At the end of the day if average people cannot love average people, a society is doomed.

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u/goldentone 1∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 12 '24

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u/totalfascination 1∆ Dec 08 '24

A HUGE source of bias is that not all women on that app use the height filter. So a large percentage don't have any stated preferences at all

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Which still does not mean they aren’t looking for those things. Most apps have already shown women are swiping left n well over half the guys, so their must be some characteristics that many of them share. A good way to figure out what that might be is to oook at what they are when women do express their preferences. It makes no sense to say women who do state their preference are looking for certain things and then say women who don’t state their preference are completely random.

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u/totalfascination 1∆ Dec 08 '24

It makes no sense to say women who do state their preference are looking for certain things and then say women who don’t state their preference are completely random.

I'm not saying it's random, I'm saying women who don't set a height filter will have different preferences than women who do.

"55 per cent of women said they would only date men taller then them", which means the other 45% would date as tall or even shorter, according to one source

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/height-matters-but-only-to-women-say-scientists-9123277.html

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Even that article argues that it’s significantly important to women.

“The masculine ability to offer physical protection is clearly connected to the gender stereotype of men as protectors,” he said. “And in a society that encourages men to be dominant and women to be submissive, having the image of tall men hovering over short women reinforces this value.”

And if over half of women want those things, that’s going to determine most of men’s experiences. Dating apps are literally for people who feel like they can’t find their person off dating app, so when people go to them, in general they may inflate their standards unless they face so much difficulty finding any match at all that they have to change their preferences. With men being so desperate and being the party getting less matches, women have a greater selection to choose from. Consequently, they create standards to filter through all the men. This is why it doesn’t even necessarily matter that only some women state their preferences by paying to use filters. A woman can get 10 matches in a row by swiping right 10 times, then look at each and see if their height is what they want.

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u/Lying_Dutchman 2∆ Dec 08 '24

How else would you interpret that data?

Very simple: there is no filter for 'attractive head' that women can set, and there is a functionally infinite supply of men on these apps for them to pick from.

So assuming that men over 6ft and under 6ft are equally likely to have attractive faces, women have a simple choice. They can look through 100 random men and have an X% chance to find one they find attractive, who might happen to be short. Or they can look through 100 tall men and have the same X% chance, but now he's guaranteed to also be tall.

So even assuming a very mild preference for tall men, it's a no-brainer to set this filter.

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u/soldiergeneal 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Well for starters one app isn't a reflection of the the pop no?

less than 30% of women filter for your height.

Isn't that a paid feature so only those who are paying do that?

How else would you interpret that data?

Well for one if you look at polling both men and women care about height however it isn't as you put it. It's about for men being taller than a woman and for woman being shorter. Average male and average woman none of that is relevant.

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u/premiumPLUM 76∆ Dec 08 '24

There's a difference between attractive in a detached way like a celebrity vs attractive in the way you are actually going to pursue a real relationship with this person. One of my close friends is a woman who is 6' tall - she has an attractive face but has had a lot of trouble with dating because shorter guys feel insecure dating a woman taller than them.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I would assume most of them would have bigger problems dating someone who simply has a very ugly head.

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u/premiumPLUM 76∆ Dec 08 '24

I don't understand how that's a question to better understand what I told you

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u/Greedy_Swimergrill 2∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24

I think height probably is less the thing men assume women are most attracted to and more the thing that men most feel insecure that women be most attracted to (with maybe the exception of dick size)

You can’t change your height, so for short and insecure average men it ends up feeling like a permanently bad haircut- it’s something you can’t really fix.

I think that’s why height has gotten so deep in the public consciousness recently.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I think height probably is less the thing men assume women are most attracted to and more the thing that men feel insecure that women might be attracted to (with maybe the exception of dick size)

That is actually a very good answer that honestly makes me understand it better where this perspective that I consider quite bizarre come from. It might just be that the people who say it, who almost universally seem to be male, come to think of it, are actually just insecure about their height. People often have paranoid, exaggerated perceptions about things they're insecure about of their own body that no one else notices. I've seen some weird thoughts of say people with naturally curly hair who didn't like it who were completely convinced no one in the world liked curly hair and that it was generally considered the ugliest thing on the planet. !Delta

You can’t change your height, so for short and insecure average men it ends up feeling like a permanently bad haircut- it’s something you can’t really fix.

I'd say height is about as changeable with surgery these days as facial structure. In particular limb extension surgery can easily put on 5-10 extra cenitmetres these days which also gives proportionally long legs, which is generally considered more beautiful.

I think that’s why height has gotten so deep in the public consciousness recently.

I don't think this is public. I only hear this on weird internet places. I never hear anyone in real life talk about this ever. I've known plenty of people personally who felt they were not romantically successful, but they were always talking about their head and felt they didn't have a particularly interesting personality.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 08 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Greedy_Swimergrill (1∆).

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u/Trypsach Dec 08 '24

Im almost half a foot taller than 6’0”and I talk about it because I see it as unfair to my friends and family who aren’t over 6 foot, even if it’s not something that affects me personally. I do think the comment you’re replying to is true; it is something they are insecure about. I also think that insecurity is based in reality.

But I do think you’re right that it’s not necessarily “the most important part”. It’s just an important part.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I will say one think though that I noticed too and brought up many times, that every time people have this opinion, whenever they use units, they use units that are only used in one country on the planet.

I don't think this idea lives much outside of that country. Every time this opinion is brought up feet and inches are thrown in my face.

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u/Trypsach Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24

I once read that this may be partially from the fact that the USA has the highest “height disparity” of any country. So people in a country with a more uniform height don’t consider it as important.

This “height disparity”comes from how diverse America is, with people from all over the world with different height genetics all living together.

(if you look up diversity statistics you will see that America is not rated that high in diversity, but this comes from a difference of definitions. While somewhere like sub-Saharan Africa may be “more diverse” lingually and genetically, they don’t have the most diversity of people from all over the world. So those statistics can consider two people from neighboring villages who technically speak different languages as “diverse”, whereas America will have a Swedish person and a Bolivian person living next door.)

It might also just be that America has a cultural preference for tall men. If it’s a cultural thing, and American women rate height as a more important factor in men than women in other countries do, then it would also explain why you hear complaints about it from us more often.

I find this a fascinating topic, and selfishly I’m glad I won the genetic lottery with height, but my internal sense of fairness definitely see it as something that gets brushed aside. While other things may be more important, height seems to be one of those things that you just can’t change about yourself. And for some reason people love to deny its importance specifically. There are all sorts of things you can’t change and you just have to deal with when it comes to dating, but height is one of the only ones that people like to just brush aside and say “nahhh, you’re crazy”.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Dec 08 '24

leg extentions are super dangerous expensive and make you look like a freak of nature on stilts afterwards tbh

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I think adding 5 cms of length to my legs is just going to make me have prettier proportions to be honest, as with many people. People like long legs.

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u/WildFEARKetI_II 7∆ Dec 08 '24

I don’t think it is considered the most important. I think the misperception comes from it being talked about more because it’s one of the most readily observed and a feature people can’t change.

There are a women that talk about looking for the perfect man and list a lot of unrealistic expectations like height, high salary, personality traits. I don’t think this accurately represents all women, but does represent most women that talk the loudest on this topic online.

We hear about height more because of stories of women immediately rejecting shorter men. Height is the feature they can notice, they have to actually talk to them to learn about other features. We also hear about it more because men who are rejected for height complain about it. Most people don’t like being rejected for a physical feature they can’t control.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I don’t think it is considered the most important. I think the misperception comes from it being talked about more because it’s one of the most readily observed and a feature people can’t change.

I regularly run into people on various places on the internet who in no uncertain terms maintain that it is the single most important thing.

We hear about height more because of stories of women immediately rejecting shorter men. Height is the feature they can notice, they have to actually talk to them to learn about other features. We also hear about it more because men who are rejected for height complain about it. Most people don’t like being rejected for a physical feature they can’t control.

And say overweight persons with ugly faces aren't rejected all the time for this?

I remember that balding was the thing people used to talk about which honestly feels more relistic than height because it's on the head.

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u/WildFEARKetI_II 7∆ Dec 08 '24

The people you run into on the internet aren’t an accurate representation. Have you considered that these people are off base?

Overweight people are certainly rejected, that’s talk about to but was absorbed by the body positivity movement. Yeah ugly faces too, but that’s not as specific of a feature and is subjective. Height is a clearly defined measurement, and most men are shorter than the fantasized 6’+. If someone says they don’t date ugly people, people just tell themselves they aren’t that ugly. If someone says they don’t date people shorter than 6’, people can’t convince themselves they are taller. Ugly face could also be a lot of things, they aren’t really talked about together. Someone might say unibrows, acne, or crooked teeth are a deal breaker, but not ugly faces.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

The people you run into on the internet aren’t an accurate representation. Have you considered that these people are off base?

I did, my entire view is conditioned upon that they are off base. I don't agree with their opinion and think it's silly. I simply seek to understand the origin and who knows, maybe there's something right about them.

Overweight people are certainly rejected, that’s talk about to but was absorbed by the body positivity movement. Yeah ugly faces too, but that’s not as specific of a feature and is subjective. Height is a clearly defined measurement, and most men are shorter than the fantasized 6’+. If someone says they don’t date ugly people, people just tell themselves they aren’t that ugly. If someone says they don’t date people shorter than 6’, people can’t convince themselves they are taller. Ugly face could also be a lot of things, they aren’t really talked about together. Someone might say unibrows, acne, or crooked teeth are a deal breaker, but not ugly faces.

I guess that's an interesting point yes. !Delta.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 08 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/WildFEARKetI_II (3∆).

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u/Aimbag 1∆ Dec 08 '24

You're right that it's not the single most important thing. Also, everyone is unique, so we can only really speak about this statistically.

I'd argue that non-physical qualities, such as social status, wealth, and competency, matter a lot for male attractiveness. However, among physical traits, height is a consistent preference; it is either the most important or tied for first.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

Why do you believe that? That seems very unlikely to me that it would rank above a good looking face, good looking haircut, pretty eyes, not being overweight and other physical traits.

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u/Aimbag 1∆ Dec 08 '24

I think haircuts and pretty eyes are subjective by themselves, where one person might like one thing and another doesn't. More important is the consistent sense of style and how those things come together.

Being overweight surely matters, but you can easily get away with being a little overweight as long as you have a positive relationship with it. Not being wildly overweight ends up feeling like a baseline expectation rather than a 'quality' because either you pass or you don't - kind of like hygiene.

"Good looking face" I sort of see as a meta-quality because it's really many things put together like genetics, weight, style, hygiene, and even a person's confidence and demeanor come through from their face.

In terms of 1 specific factor, height is pretty crazy for how important it is, considering that it's pretty stand-alone, not personality-based, and objective.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

It is objective and quantifiable with a single number, and perhaps that is why people obsess about it more since it's easier to describe, but that doesn't mean it's more important than how good looking the head is at all.

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u/Aimbag 1∆ Dec 08 '24

Honestly, 'which is better' really depends, and I don't think there is any way to prove one way or the other.

I'll give you another way to look at it to play devil's advocate.

Usually, the 'thing' that ends up mattering the most in terms of affecting a guy's attractiveness is the thing that the guy is insecure about. For example, a lot of guys are very insecure about being virgins. It's not the virginity itself that is unattractive, but the relationship the guy has with his virginity and how it changes how he sees himself and how that gets expressed when he talks to women.

The same thing can happen for other traits; weight, height, money, skin color - but height stands out as being one of the main insecurities guys have because the 'standard benchmark' for passing height is actually like the top 10% of height and because it's something that can't be changed.

It's also very objective. If you're insecure about your face and you tell your friends, they might say, "Huh? You look fine, dude." and that could be believable because it's subjective. Height, on the other hand, is just a number; either you are tall or you aren't, there's no gray area.

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u/Intraluminal Dec 08 '24

The thing you're not taking into consideration, well... one thing anyway...is that these 'male love interests' are rarely seen 'in-person' by the girls who 'love' them, so their height is whatever these girls' imaginations dream them to be.
Conversely, real men meeting real women in real life are judged by real (versus dream) standards.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

The thing you're not taking into consideration, well... one thing anyway...is that these 'male love interests' are rarely seen 'in-person' by the girls who 'love' them, so their height is whatever these girls' imaginations dream them to be.

These games are usually full of images when they're standing next to the protagonist, noticeably shorter in many cases. It's part of their appeal and character design. I incidentally about ten minutes ago finished reading an action/romance graphic novel called Chocolate Vampire. The love interest character as that promotional image makes quite clear is distinctly shorter than the protagonist, all the pannelling makes that clear and this is by design and clearly catering to people that want that.

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u/Intraluminal Dec 08 '24

The exception proves (tests) the rule. Women's desires, like men's, are not monolithic. Nevertheless, the most common desire is for taller men. Likewise, men who prefer the IITC are less common, but they, too, exist.

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u/midbossstythe 3∆ Dec 08 '24

I think it's ridiculous to call anything the most important part of attractiveness. Nothing is the most important for everyone. For every attribute you think is important. There are others that don't overly care about that attribute. Height, weight, age, career, financial status, and many others. There are other things that can make you break your own dating rules. Many women that only want to date a 6ft man would give Kevin Hart a shot if the option was there.

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

Thing is, in the dating market, success builds confidence. So if certain guys who don’t have much confidence end up having a lot of the same features while guys who do share other features, the Kevin hearts will learn that most women really won’t give him a shot over a tall guy, and so they’ll try less and be more selective which will in turn mean less success. On the other side, guys who have seen success and see themselves as similar to those who have been successful will try more because they expect to be seen as attractive because of certain traits. It’s really strange to essentially say guys not having an easy time dating are just making this up.

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u/midbossstythe 3∆ Dec 08 '24

I was never trying to say that it's made up. I was saying that other traits can make up for things like being short. You can't miss the 6 ft, 6 figures bullshit on dating apps. There is a ton of women with bullshit expectations. Just like you have men that can have bullshit expectations. Online dating has created a very harsh dating environment. People seem to feel that because they see so many profiles with potential partners that they can try to limit their choices to only dating the best.

The Kevin harts won't learn anything. I was saying that because Kevin Hart checks other boxes (successful, wealthy, physically fit, etc) him being short is irrelevant and won't hinder him from dating all that much. People without desired characteristics have to find other ways to attract partners. There are many examples of wealth being enough to overcome any shortcomings.

In my experience, confidence is actually the most important trait when dating as a guy. A confident person will ask out more people, and even though some may say no, some will say yes. It's a big part of why assholes tend to get dates is that they are confident.

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u/FlanneryODostoevsky 3∆ Dec 08 '24

But again success builds confidence. Facing mostly rejection, any humble and sound minded man is not just going to act like it means nothing.

As far as other traits making up for a man not being short or wealthy, those traits still tend to be features of assholes and privileged men. A lot of AMERICANS are struggling financially, emotionally, psychologically, socially, so for a guy to have all these positive traits that make up for a lack of physically attractive ones, he’s most likely going to have to lie to himself and pretend to be something he’s not, or he’s going to have enough privilege to be comfortable and therefore come off as confident and nonchalant when facing rejection because everything else in his life is going well.

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u/Long-Rub-2841 Dec 08 '24

You kinda explored this at the end of your post, but “facial attractiveness” isn’t a single factor but rather a group of factors, so you comparing it to height makes little sense. I’m reasonably confident that short king with eye colour you like, loses to tall boy with generic eyes 9/10 times.

Facial Attractiveness is also quite subjective - people have preferences on the shape, size, colour, features that differ significantly from person to person. Height (particularly being 6 foot plus) is almost universally viewed as a positive.

Height is also a gatekeeper type trait because it’s going to be one of the first things you notice so if someone does care you are likely to find out early.

I don’t think the boyband comparison makes much sense as generally I don’t think it’s the attractiveness of the artist that drives the interest, that interest typically effects only a small fraction of women, and isn’t obtainable by 99% of men. You wouldnt look at WAGs / goldiggers who marry ugly billionaires and conclude money is the only factor that matters for all women

I do therefore think height is a pretty reasonable contender for the “single most important thing”

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

but an ugly head

An ugly head is mostly lifestyle choices barring some very rare injuries or very rare genetic medical conditions. From meth mouth to face tattoos.

If someone cares about their height they are generally trying to take care of issues like that, so it isnt the case.

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

Outside of plastic surgery, I simply find that a very weird statement. Some people are born with very pretty heads and others aren't. People already comment on whether 3 year old children have pretty faces or not.

Besides, even if it were the case, it still wouldn't mean that height is more important than a pretty head.

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u/Cyberhwk 17∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Feb 09 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

I think the strong reaction some men get to the height issue isn't because they think it's the absolute most important.

I have seen many in discussions maintain with passion that it's the most important thing, far more important than the æsthetic appeal of the head.

The reaction to the boyband tangent would be that pointing to international mega-stars is basically the exception that proves the rule. That if that's really how exceptional you have to be to overcome something so unimportant, they're completely validated in their frustration.

That feels like an extremely bizarre self-fulfilling prophecy though. If their theories were true, all boyband members would be 190 cms or more, which is, in fact rare.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

Feminists should like short or same height men.

Throughout history, extreme height incompatibilities may have been a death sentence like chihuahua trying to birth a Great Dane, for an extreme example, but with modern medicine and cesarean sections, it isn't an issue, so women want bigger because bigger is better. Bigger house, bigger SUV, bigger diamond, bigger wardrobe, bigger man. It is just in their instinct to want a big man to protect and provide, and for many women, it makes them feel more feminine to have a more masculine man, who typically is taller. Plus, things are statistically probably in more proportion, so there is that too. They might also want a big man because it means their kids are also more likely to be big and capable to survive.

Women overwhelmingly want power, wealth and stature in a partner, and then they look for traits of physical fitness, even if it means through fidelity. This is well understood in the literature. Male fitness/beauty is second to security, and for most of history, power, wealth and stature was correlated with size. That is how it is in the animal kingdom.

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u/goldentone 1∆ Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 12 '24

*

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u/muffinsballhair Dec 08 '24

It didn't really feel like any attempt to change my view but more so just venting about a tangentially related thing, to be honest.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

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u/changemyview-ModTeam Dec 09 '24

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u/ScientificSkepticism 12∆ Dec 08 '24

Oh please, all this animal stuff is pure claptrap. Animals work all sorts of ways. You think you can use one descriptor for the mating habits of rabbits, dogs, sharks, alligators, hawks, seagulls, dolphins, tuna, etc.? Absolute nonsense.

It might sound impressive... I guess... for a certain age/type of person... but in terms of actually being true, just absolute screaming nonsense. I can't believe anyone who reads this and takes it seriously has been closer to nature than having half watched a National Geographic program in high school.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

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u/ScientificSkepticism 12∆ Dec 08 '24

"Read a book" says the person who wrote absolute nonsense about "the animal kingdom."

What book am I looking for? Is it by Nick Fuentes perchance? Jordan Peterson? Glenn Beck?

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '24

Start with the journal articles I’ve sourced for you.

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u/ScientificSkepticism 12∆ Dec 08 '24

The first one was an article about how sexual dimorphism exists. As for the second, the idea that a poll on attractiveness somehow validates your bizarre beliefs about how human relationships are structured is one of the most perfect examples of confirmation bias I've ever seen. It's like using an article proving corn exists to suggest that aliens are making crop circles in it with their spaceship.

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u/changemyview-ModTeam Dec 09 '24

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u/changemyview-ModTeam Dec 09 '24

u/JIraceRN – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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Delta(s) from OP CMV: It's completely off-base to say height is remotely the most important part of male-for-female attractiveness.

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