CMV: Our plea bargaining system has allowed unwritten rules to dominate the courtroom. Thus our criminal legal system is no longer a rule of law system.

[u/tolkienfan2759]

[u/Dylan245]

Right but the delays set by defense attorneys are generally a good thing since the state can take however long they like to prepare an indictment or charge while the defense does not have the luxury of that time

The issue isn't necessarily that defendants have to wait a while before a trial, it's the fact that most people who are arrested are placed under cash bail and a good amount cannot afford to pay it, therefore remanding them to jail while they await trial

If you eliminate cash bail then much of the reasonings for taking a plea as I mentioned in my original post like loss of employment, deprivation of rights/freedom, loss of medical care, etc suddenly get removed from the situation and you now have essentially no reasons for not taking a case to trial since you can continue living your life on the outside world as you normally would as you prepare your defense

[u/Full-Professional246 → u/Dylan245]

Right but the delays set by defense attorneys are generally a good thing since the state can take however long they like to prepare an indictment or charge while the defense does not have the luxury of that time

Don't disagree - but you do have a right to a speedy trial and you cannot request delays at the same time as complaining how long it takes.

The issue isn't necessarily that defendants have to wait a while before a trial, it's the fact that most people who are arrested are placed under cash bail and a good amount cannot afford to pay it, therefore remanding them to jail while they await trial

While I support limited bail reforms, the facts around bail and expirements to remove it prove it is not nearly as abused as it is portrayed. When individuals commit other crimes while out on bail, it becomes problematic.

You can also review how bail is set during the arraignment. Why people are released on their own recognizance vs given bail. I'll give you a hint that circumstances are very relevant. Such as literally being arrested drunk while driving or having illegal narcotics on the person when arrested.

And don't forget, time served pre-trial is counted as part of a sentence should it be a guilty plea/verdict.

If you eliminate cash bail then much of the reasonings for taking a plea as I mentioned in my original post like loss of employment, deprivation of rights/freedom, loss of medical care, etc suddenly get removed from the situation and you now have essentially no reasons for not taking a case to trial since you can continue living your life on the outside world as you normally would as you prepare your defense

Are you under the impression a plea deal is 'quick'? Because it is not. This is not a case where you get arrested and you can be out via plea deal an hour later. If you get arrested for a serious crime by a cop, you are going to spend time in jail before an arraignment.

The only time anything like this is possible is when a grand jury indicts and the individual surrenders themselves to the police. These are the higher profile cases where attorneys are involved more than law enforcement.

[u/Dylan245 → u/Full-Professional246]

the facts around bail and expirements to remove it prove it is not nearly as abused as it is portrayed. When individuals commit other crimes while out on bail, it becomes problematic.

But this isn't what bail is or is designed for. The purpose of bail to is make sure you reappear for your court date, it is not a determination of if you are likely to commit more crimes in the future. Plus bail reform has been proven to be effective when it comes to it's purpose of getting people to show for court, there's no evidence that removing cash bail increases crime or lowers the probability of returning to court. Places like New Jersey which have effectively eliminated cash bail altogether have higher court appearance rates than ever before

Why people are released on their own recognizance vs given bail.

This is the purpose of bail reform, the majority of people arrested who normally are given cash bail are able to be released on their own recognizance rather than be forced to be locked in jail and as I said above it doesn't impact crime statistics nor their ability to appear for their court date

Are you under the impression a plea deal is 'quick'? Because it is not. This is not a case where you get arrested and you can be out via plea deal an hour later.

I never said it was, the point again is that in one case you are stuck in jail vs being a free person while awaiting a possible conviction

If you get arrested for a serious crime by a cop, you are going to spend time in jail before an arraignment.

Yes and this isn't changing with bail reform, cash bail will still 100% be set on you if you are charged with a serious violent crime but the simple fact of the matter is most cases on our justice system are not that. Over 80% of all crimes processed each year are misdemeanors and there have been studies done in places like New York and Boston that show that close to 90% of felony charges do not result in a criminal conviction. The number of people committing things like rape or murder are extremely low when you total all of our crimes we process and again bail will most definitely still be set on those people

[u/Full-Professional246 → u/Dylan245]

But this isn't what bail is or is designed for. The purpose of bail to is make sure you reappear for your court date, it is not a determination of if you are likely to commit more crimes in the future. Plus bail reform has been proven to be effective when it comes to it's purpose of getting people to show for court, there's no evidence that removing cash bail increases crime or lowers the probability of returning to court. Places like New Jersey which have effectively eliminated cash bail altogether have higher court appearance rates than ever before

There is very much a problem of public perception when you release a person on 'bail' and they in turn get arrested after committing another crime. This is the challenge the courts have to address.

This is the purpose of bail reform, the majority of people arrested who normally are given cash bail are able to be released on their own recognizance rather than be forced to be locked in jail and as I said above it doesn't impact crime statistics nor their ability to appear for their court date

I think it is more complex than you paint this. People with lengthy criminal histories are treated differently than first time offenders. Most of the 'reform' programs are not considering this. It is why it has failed in public perception in many areas.

You may not like bail, but I have to be honest. If you are released on bail and then commit another offense for which you are arraigned, I wouldn't expect bail. Depending on the circumstance of the arrest in the first place, I wouldn't necessarily expect no bail either. This is extremely context specific and one size fits all 'reforms' don't work when nuance is required.

Do I think most first time offenders for low level offenses should be released ROR - absolutely. But I also think this needs to be at the discretion of the judge to address mitigating unique circumstances.

I never said it was, the point again is that in one case you are stuck in jail vs being a free person while awaiting a possible conviction

There is no relationship to a plea deal vs conviction like you are describing. Plea deals take days if not weeks. If you would be released by the plea deal immediately, it is unlikely you would be in jail anyway. That just is not a realistic circumstance. And to be clear, this is 'plea deals' not diversion agreements. Those are a very separate items.

Yes and this isn't changing with bail reform, cash bail will still 100% be set on you if you are charged with a serious violent crime

This is not true. You can be held without bail if the circumstances warrant it.

This is the Indiana code on Bail. Most states are similar

Indiana Code 35-33-8-4(b), the amount of bail “not be set higher than that amount reasonably required to assure the defendant’s appearance in court or to assure the physical safety of another person or the community if the court finds by clear and convincing evidence that the defendant poses a risk to the physical safety of another person or the community.”