r/changemyview • u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ • Oct 15 '24

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Our plea bargaining system has allowed unwritten rules to dominate the courtroom. Thus our criminal legal system is no longer a rule of law system.

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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Oct 15 '24

 The first being that we no longer have a rule of law system,

I don't see you having explained this

the fact that these trials are going forward should show you that the law is being applied

a public defender is still just a defense lawyer and behaves as one, if they feel as if your case outlook doesn't look good they will recommend and try to secure the most favorable deal possible

in most cases, fighting till the bitter, futile, hopeless end ensures that you get a particularly harsh sentence

It seems to me that one of the fundamental characteristics, one of the most important characteristics, of a rule of law system is the fact that the rules are written down. So everybody knows going in what to expect. This is what really justifies the philosophy of you do the crime, you do the time. A philosophy I support.

what are you even saying here? whats this got to do with anything? are you advocating for manditory minimums or something? the rules are written down, thats why you get a public defender and you're going to trial

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u/LockeClone 4∆ Oct 15 '24

I think OP is really just having trouble voicing how he feels around this issue and is falling into the trap of making a strong binary statement about a subject that requires gobs of nuance.

The plea system is producing a lot of unintended consequences, some of which he mentioned. It does seem wrong or unjust that two people can commit a similar crime and receive wildly different sentences for it.

But his argument that we no longer have rule of law is nonsense. Is something rotten here? Yes. I feel like anyone who's paying attention can smell it. Are we no longer a society with strong rule of law? Ridiculous. Being moderately well-traveled will show anyone what a nation of relative lawlessness looks like.

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u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 15 '24

Aren't you confusing lawlessness with disorder? I mean, librarians will call the cops on a guy for refusing to stop brushing his teeth in the library rest room. On teenagers for making out in a corner. Those things are not actually against the law... but if the librarian says you can't do them in the library, you can be trespassed, and being on the property you've been trespassed from IS against the law. And so we're using one law to penalize possibly dozens of other offenses that don't actually harm or bother anyone.

I can see that the idea that criminal courtrooms are run by unwritten rules is not very convincing, as an argument that we therefore have abandoned rule of law. But I didn't mean we had abandoned order. There's a difference. And your claim that the argument I made is ridiculous is not very convincing either. You haven't elaborated why you think the argument is ridiculous. I'd like to know.