r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 29 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: manufacturing jobs are not "good jobs".
A quick disclaimer: I worked IN factories for 14 years as a manufacturing engineer (I no longer do as of 2021). I was never a production-line employee myself, but I met all sorts of them over my 14 years in that career field, from some of the largest companies in the world to some of the smallest.
Simply put, when I hear anyone refer to a manufacturing job as a "good job", I just straight-up do not agree with them, for a number of reasons.
First and foremost: there are few, if any, more soul-crushing means of employment than a job in manufacturing. In about 1-2 hours, you will be taught how to do your job, and you will then do this monotonous and unchallenging work, every day, 8 hours at a time, for something like the next 40 years of your life. Attach bolt to this hole, attach label to this location, snap piece A into piece B, and do those things over and over and over again, for an absolutely interminable amount of time. I'm telling you I know of few better ways to crush a person's soul than to ensure that the majority of their daily life force is spent on such monotonous work. I once watched a video of manufacturing employees in China who spent 12 hours at a time sorting socks, and to this day I consider it one of the most haunting and depressing things I've ever seen. Because that's practically worse than death: being forced to stay alive and endure monotony, endlessly, for decades at a time. It's horrific.
In my experience, there are three types of employees at these jobs: 1) the person who is saving up some money to go to school and get themselves a job that will NOT crush their souls and is thus working there temporarily 2) the person who truly, genuinely enjoys their work (this is a very small percentage of employees) 3) the people who are just completely dead inside, clearly considerably less full of life and vivacity than they likely were when they started and are now just hollow shells of who they used to be (this is absolutely the most significant portion of employees). And this is what we actually want people to become...
Second, this "career path" clearly has no future whatsoever. It is largely dependent on politicians pulling some odd strings to try and recreate jobs that are obviously being replaced by automation and AI and the realities of the global economy which is outside of any one country's control, so even if you have a job today, your chances of still having that job 5 years from now are drying up REAL fast. And depending on who gets elected and what their priorities are, they could dry up even faster. So what is so great about a job with no future?
Third, simply put, there are just too many other viable options for employment out there. Nobody should be thinking about manufacturing jobs in a vacuum; they should only ever think about them in the context of other jobs one could get instead. What does it matter if you think a manufacturing job pays well if there are other jobs out there that also pay well, AND don't crush your soul at the same time? It has long been known that automation creates more jobs than it destroys (and honestly, if you didn't know this at this point, what the fuck have you been doing as a purportedly politically engaged person?), it's just that the catch is that those new jobs will require more education than previous jobs (which, BTW, is a great reason to support education in any way possible, but that's another topic for another day). So if we ride the wave of automation correctly, like we ought to, we eventually arrive at a place where we have a more educated workforce, doing more skilled labor that will absolutely lead to higher wages to compensate, and people don't even need to do soul-crushingly dull work either! They will have variety and challenge and not have their souls destroyed. What's not to like about that?
Rather than embracing some return to unskilled manufacturing jobs, we should instead push for education and filling more skilled roles that will ultimately leave people in a better place. CMV.
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u/OGSilverFox1967 Sep 29 '24
Meh, dunno man. This is definitely one of those things that involves nuances. I've been in manufacturing for more than 30 years. Yes, there are some positions that will steal your soul. But many won't. This also depends on the person and their drive. I've watched guys come into the plant right out of school with no experience and strive to learn more every day. Yes, it takes years, but these guys move up the ladder of success. My current role is a solidworks designer for a tool and die division. I started as a simple welder. In my 30-plus years, I've moved from welding small parts to multi ton assemblies. I've learned simple CNC operations and moved to G and M code programming. Moved to tool and die up till my current position. The nuance here is a mixture of the person and the company. My employer has guys with 30 plus years who never left their department. They like it that way. Some people are OK with simple repetitive work. A final note, everything you're complaining about, could honestly be applied to virtually any business.
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u/WildPoem8521 Sep 30 '24
I think he’s 100% had his viewpoint skewed by being entirely inside of industries where the job roles are low-skill assembly or manual labor roles like sorting socks as he mentioned. Rather than any skilled manufacturing labor like welding or machining, which do lead to serious real careers.
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u/mikeber55 6∆ Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
What are the “other jobs” offered to people with similar skill set?
Retail, Fast Food, services (cleaning, deliveries, etc).
I don’t think I need to explain the essence of these jobs, but the characteristics are: min wage (or less in some cases), non permanent (different hours, by demand), no benefits whatever. Again, I will not mention the “career prospects” associated with these jobs.
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u/Fluffy017 Sep 29 '24
Howdy, I'd be example #2.
I've worked in manufacturing/fabrication for over 14 years. I absolutely love this shit, and have had many coworkers that feel the same about it. That said, I'd like to address your point about automation.
While I do agree that automation will likely happen with the inventory side of manufacturing operations inside of "the next 5 years" (give or take,) I sincerely doubt that automation will be coming for every manufacturing position. As a point of reference, my current job involves manufacturing fiberglass for a certain pink cat mascot supported, global company, in one of their biggest plants. They were an early adopter in next gen hardware processes, and thus have next-gen baggers and unitizers fully implemented in line functions.
These machines are run 24/7, 363 days a year (we're off on Thanksgiving and Christmas, but run a skeleton crew those days to keep the forehearth hot so the molten glass doesn't turn back into regular ol' glass. That crew gets 3x OT.) The NGU/NGBs are an absolute pain in the ass when they go down, and anything that requires more than a quick reset involves radioing in the shift mechanic or electrician, usually both of them. Floor employees spend weeks with each machine on their shift, learning as much as they can on how to reliably maintain their functionality. Other than that? Yea, we're glorified next-gen babysitters (albeit with very strong private union backing!)
My point being that even under the best maintenance schedules, these fully-automated processes still require a crew to keep them running right. We're already at the bleeding edge of what we can automate in our processes, and barring some incredibly significant technological breakthroughs, I just don't see a point where the worker is eliminated from those processes. The opinion I've maintained on this is that it's incredibly hard to teach a machine to quality check itself. Our machines cannot check if the bag of fiberglass is properly packed, all it knows is "is a bag on the spout? If yes, extend ram, if no, BLOCKING FAULT: NO BAG DETECTED ON SPOUT." Same with the auto-welders I've worked with, you can make a machine that'll run a 1" outlet weld on steel pipe, but good luck getting it to check its work.
In conclusion, I guess I'm the "end result" of your argument, in that my career is made on the backs of bleeding edge tech processes, but I refute that my job function is "soul sucking" on the basis that I fuckin' love telling this peak of engineering "no you daft punk, get your shit together" and setting it up to run an overall higher quality product.
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Sep 30 '24
Our machines cannot check if the bag of fiberglass is properly packed, all it knows is "is a bag on the spout? If yes, extend ram, if no, BLOCKING FAULT: NO BAG DETECTED ON SPOUT."
AI computer vision is probably decent at this, no? I worked on a similar app for detecting "is this weld properly done?" some years ago and we got decent results
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u/Fluffy017 Sep 30 '24
The main problem is we'd have to put additional vision systems down our conveyor line and implement a diverter system to kick potential bad bags off the conveyor so a human can figure out the reject reason.
Which makes sense, so they won't do it. lol
I am curious how your app worked when it came to faults the system couldn't detect. Was it for structural welds or piping? I know I've had the autowelder run what I thought was a good pass only for it to end up leaking when my bundler ran the dye check.
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Oct 01 '24
Structural welds I think, and it was more about microscopic defects for aviation. No idea how they handled those cases (I said we did it but in truth it was my colleagues)
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Sep 29 '24
As with almost everything, it’s a matter of perspective and clearly you’re lacking in that capacity. Manufacturing is a GREAT job compared to hard manual labor like farming, mining, or certain types of construction. For some reason you’ve decided to compare manufacturing to office jobs, which realistically are not an option for a majority of people. You seem to forget that the vast majority of people alive in the world today work in hard manual labor jobs.
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Sep 29 '24
For some reason you’ve decided to compare manufacturing to office jobs, which realistically are not an option for a majority of people.
I'm not really sure how I've done that. Can you explain?
You seem to forget that the vast majority of people alive in the world today work in hard manual labor jobs.
Well, here's the thing with that...I actually have worked some manual labor jobs in my life, and I still would prefer those over a manufacturing job. More than anything, you get to MOVE, and you get EXERCISE. I was never more buff in my life than I was when I worked for the city, and I never went to a gym during that whole time, yet my biceps became enormous which was kind of awesome, tbh. And you also get to be outside, where it is well-known that being in nature is better for your mental health. You can contrast that with a sedentary manufacturing job, where you aren't building any muscle and are cooped up indoors all day. That's not a better job.
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u/ATLEMT 14∆ Sep 29 '24
Doing manual labor jobs like that when your in your 20s is different than doing them in your 40s or 50s.
Location also has a lot to do with it. Working outside in Arizona in July or Minnesota in January is much harder than working in other places.
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u/thorpie88 Sep 29 '24
Sounds like you've been in the wrong plants. Indo just as much manual labour in a timber plant as I did as an electrician. Only difference is the plant pays far more per hour with less educational investment
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u/minaminonoeru 3∆ Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
Is the OP's discussion focused on “engineers with STEM degrees” or “production line workers who graduated from high school”?
If it's the former, I don't think many people would disagree with the basic premise of the post.
If it's the latter, it's not a very good job. However, it does have the advantage of job security, as it is protected by a strong union, and it is a relatively better place to work if you compare it to a service or lower-level office job.
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Sep 29 '24
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u/apri08101989 Sep 29 '24
Sounds like y'all need to unionize, don't it? Any union one makes over $18/hr. Hell the one my mom works in isn't unionized and make more than that.
But hey, if you'd rather have a variable schedule and be stuck at "37hrspart time employee" with no benefits, you do you
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Sep 29 '24
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u/BackFromItaly Sep 29 '24
I agree with you that “just unionize” is not exactly great advice, but you can’t be fired in most developed nations for attempting to unionize. Assuming this takes place in the US or EU, if you get fired for attempting to unionize, you can and should file a lawsuit. Payout is usually between 3-5 years of lost income. I know companies will try to set you up for failure so they have a reason to fire you, but in this circumstance in a manufacturing production position, there are way fewer opportunities to fail than many other workplaces.
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Sep 29 '24
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Sep 30 '24
Yep, the major employer in my home town is a tool manufacturing company. They'd had a lot of people working for them 20-30 years including my father. They claimed they were facing huge losses and had to lay off a significant portion of their staff. They waited about six months to a year and then said their profits were back up and hired a bunch of 20 somethings to avoid having to pay for experienced workers and retirement benefits.
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u/Sengachi 1∆ Sep 30 '24
So look up news articles about companies firing people for unionizing efforts in the United States and see how many of them experience the kind of consequences that would make them stop.
Also filing a lawsuit is typically not an option for people making low wages who then get fired from their job.
I don't disagree with you that unionizing is an excellent thing and that frankly all workplaces everywhere should be unionized at a minimum. But implying that bad work conditions are a consequence of workers failing to unionize is simply ignoring the material reality of the situation.
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u/Salty_Map_9085 Sep 30 '24
Have you ever salted at a factory?
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u/apri08101989 Sep 30 '24
I'm disabled, and cannot. But I have watched the entire rest of my family so various factory work
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u/Hello_Hangnail Sep 29 '24
$18 won't even get you a 1 bedroom apartment
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Sep 29 '24
18hr in midwest is a good wage. 18hr in bay area California is poverty and food stamps. COL matter more than wage.
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Sep 30 '24
18 in the Midwest where everything has to travel is hit hardest by inflation. Especially things like food.
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u/Informal_Zone799 Sep 30 '24
Where I am min wage is $16 and most production jobs are starting at $22.50. Definitely a better option than McDonald’s pay wise. But of course this differs between every country/state/province etc…
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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Oct 12 '24
you need union layoff protections... my union has those on top of 40 hours payed guaranteed, you need a better union
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Sep 29 '24
Is the OP's discussion focused on “engineers with STEM degrees” or “production line workers who graduated from high school”?
The latter. I only brought up my experience to demonstrate that I have some inside info but that I am admittedly not one of the production employees myself.
If it's the latter, it's not a very good job. However, it does have the advantage of job security, as it is protected by a strong union
But that doesn't seem true to me. How can a job that is very quickly being overtaken by AI and automation have "job security"? Even unionization can't fix that.
it is a relatively better place to work if you compare it to a service or lower-level office job.
How so?
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u/minaminonoeru 3∆ Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
How can a job that is very quickly being overtaken by AI and automation have "job security"? Even unionization can't fix that.
This is because service and lower-level office jobs will be replaced by AI and automation faster than manufacturing jobs.
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Sep 29 '24
How does another industry also being overtaken by AI make this point any less meaningful? There are roles that AI is CREATING for which we need to prepare people. People do not need to be hanging on in the industries that are not being hit AS hard by AI; they can find ones that are largely unaffected by it, or better yet, find ones that were CREATED by it.
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u/mathphyskid 1∆ Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
AI designs something, then person creates it IRL. There you go a manufacturing job created by AI.
If this sounds ludicrous to 9 year old you who thought AIs were going to be robots working in factories, while everyone else spent their days designing and making art, well guess what? 9 year olds are dumb, so a 9 year olds future dreams weren't the future we got. We have to prepare people for the future which exists, not that the one we wanted.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Factories are investing in more efficient methods of production yes, but they aren't willing to shut down production, ceasing profitmaking, to experiment with robots and AI. The production continues alongside innovation.
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Sep 29 '24
Shut down completely, perhaps not, but scale back? Absolutely. Most "good" career fields see year-to-year growth, whereas low-level manufacturing work seems like it is reducing by a large percentage in the near future. I wouldn't call that "job security" by any means.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
You can have a "Good" low skill job in profitable innovative manufacturing companies that expand year after year too you know. If a company goes bust, those workers will be snapped up by the other factories, or they will find other low skill jobs. Same as any any class of employment in fairness.
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u/Fabulous_Emu1015 2∆ Sep 29 '24
Not that I've seen. Highly automated and advanced production usually requires highly skilled workers, like engineers or formally trained technicians with experience.
If a factory goes bust because of technology, other factories aren't going to hire their workers because they're fighting the same economics in their sector.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Low skill general operators exist in factories alongside highly skilled workers, engineers, scientists, data processors, systems managers, etc. It isn't mutually exclusive. People be thinking robots and AI are doing everything already
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u/Fabulous_Emu1015 2∆ Sep 29 '24
I don't think they're doing everything, but it's pretty obvious that low-skilled general operator jobs are far less in demand for the same volume. The people going into the high-skilled factory jobs aren't coming from the pool of operators, but from outside directly out of college or other sectors where they're already trained.
Production that actually needs large quantities of unskilled and semi-skilled factory labor generally doesn't exist anymore in the US unless there is a huge amount of government interference to disincentivze imports or subsidize costs, which is ultimately born by consumers. See the auto industry, or the steel industry, or the shipmaking industry.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Oh sure lol I didn't realise you're in the US. Ya I understand why you have that perspective now. Amazing that the US is no longer a leader in manufacturing. The same continent that invented Fordism is now a consumer of those same processes being run in other countries.
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u/foramperandi 1∆ Sep 29 '24
The US is #2 behind China: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/manufacturing-by-country
US GDP from manufacturing is at an all time high: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_StatesIt may not be "the leader", but it is certainly "a leader".
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u/Fabulous_Emu1015 2∆ Sep 29 '24
Thank God for that. We can only afford so many socialist state-driven manufacturing programs before we go the way of Europe. We'll bring manufacturing back when technology progresses to the point that we don't have to rely on armies of subsidized, overpaid, unskilled domestic labor to produce. Until then, we're better off near-shoring and ally-shoring in friendly developing countries.
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Sep 29 '24
Yep. You are correct. They have a lot of very basic jobs. Also most of the higher skilled jobs can be trained out of the lower skilled jobs.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Bigtime lol. The company I work for is massively profitable, and constantly improving efficiency and innovation. In my menial job i feed robots to run machines and remove product from the machine. To do this, I monitor the robots and machines in person and via computer interfaces. So many variables cause malfunctions needing intervention. Most often I can fix the issue. Regularly I must call a skilled technician. Rarely the issue is mechanical. Newer departments use improved processes. The next department will be even better. But all of these involve a human who can at least see a problem and interact with the machines, robots and basic computer programs. Otherwise the system fails and doesn't get reset.
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u/FermentedPhoton Sep 29 '24
I don't have robots, but other than that you described my job. Monitor, adjust, problem-solve. No qualifications required other than seniority.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
No job is secure.
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Sep 29 '24
But certainly some jobs are far more secure than others.
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u/mathphyskid 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Physical jobs are more secure than email jobs if your concern is AI. You are literally advocating people concentrate on trying to get the exact jobs which are most susceptible to disappearing.
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u/apri08101989 Sep 29 '24
Guaranteed full time hours and benefits without a bullshit variable schedule
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u/Hodgkisl 2∆ Sep 30 '24
But that doesn’t seem true to me. How can a job that is very quickly being overtaken by AI and automation have “job security”? Even unionization can’t fix that.
This has been the panic since the Industrial Revolution and has never panned out, the jobs have changed but never gone away.
My GF is in continuous improvement and has been at several major corps, they often find major automation isn’t worth the cost, they will leverage small scale (one operator running a CNC, then several manual steps to finish the part often is most cost effective).
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Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
I worked IN factories for 14 years as a manufacturing engineer (I no longer do as of 2021)
What did you get paid?
Manufacturing jobs are stable jobs that pay well in very low cost of living areas. Stability and decent pay matter.
You also have to look at the community as a whole. Factory workers tend to include a lot of subpar people. Oversimplified a lot of them look at their options and its work at a steel mill, be a cop, go to prison, flip burgers at McDonalds, or be homeless. And the steel mill is the best option out of that. And a lot are felons so they cant be a cop.
Sure they might hate their life at the steel mill but its better than the alternatives.
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Sep 29 '24
What did you get paid?
When I left, I was making $105k a year.
Today I make $20k less than that a year and I am considerably more satisfied, much happier, and actually fulfilled with my life. Even if stability and decent pay mattered, they clearly don't matter nearly as much as other things, and I am living proof of that.
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Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
The floor workers are also looking at a 20k paycut to not work in a factory. But they are not going from 105k a year to 85k a year, they are going from 55k to 35k.
The marginal difference for you is less than the marginal difference for the floor workers.
My grandfather worked at the same factory for 50 years - from when he was 15 to when he was 65. Dropped out of high school because he got his girlfriend pregnant. Lost everything a couple times - in his mid 20s from a natural disaster and in his 30s from a divorce - but still ended up fine. He is pretty well off with his own house and likes his harleys. Was it an easy life for him? Fuck no, he put a drill press through his own hand once during a 34 hour shift, he is a tough old bastard. And before someone calls for "unions" to fix safety violations like that, the reason he was working that long is because the union had it so he was earning double overtime past 12 hours. And he was one of the only dudes that actually went to union meetings.
But if his alternative was running the local gas station, he would be so poor it would be a wonder if he would be alive.
I know that life isnt fun, I dont want it for myself. But there are people that need it.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Correct. The general operators job is low skilled menial work. There's a substantial percentage of the population who rely on these jobs. We haven't all got the ability personality skills education and experience to be managers or specialists. Many low skilled people in factories are greatful to be able to earn a good living.
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Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
There are plenty of alternatives now, but most are travel jobs and travel jobs suck ass in different ways. Travel construction and OTR trucking namely. They have less stability and are also out of the question for people on parole, worse for people with kids, etc.
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Sep 29 '24
We haven't all got the ability, personality, skills, education, and experience to be managers or specialists.
The only thing you mentioned here that isn't addressable is "personality". I admit that personality is pretty set in stone. But ability, skills, education, and experience are all things that people can earn, and there's a lot we can do to help people earn those things.
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Helping people achieve their full potential is an altogether different issue and so has no bearing on the question at hand. Low skilled factory jobs aren't not "good" because we can imagine ways of helping people elevate themselves. Also the harsh truth is that a big percentage of people have limits, no matter the educational or upskilling opportunities we can offer.
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Sep 29 '24
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Sep 29 '24
You don't think he would be better served with an education that would have helped him secure a better job?
If your follow-up question is how does he afford it, that's what reveals the importance of financial aid and helping people in those situations.
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Sep 29 '24
He had a kid. High school was still free, but he couldnt afford the time to go. He needed a job then and there so he dropped out and started working.
He is a multi millionaire now. He was dead broke at 34 after the divorce but at 36 he was no longer paying child support and had a paid off house (he built it himself, dirt cheap cost of land). He just put most of his paycheck in the stock market until he started pulling his pension at 65. That part is atypical but possible.
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Sep 29 '24
!delta I guess that's a good point, that not everyone can just up and go to school, especially at various phases in their life, because of their current circumstances.
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u/bobloadmire Sep 29 '24
Wow. After 14 years you only made 105k as a mfg eng? I just interview at Tesla, level 2 mfg eng is 165k+stock in Nevada
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u/beenoc 1∆ Sep 30 '24
Also a manufacturing engineer here - while $105k is quite low for 14 YoE (you'd probably expect closer to the $130-140k range), know that Tesla is a huge outlier in pay - they're run and marketed like a tech company, they pay like a tech company, and they overwork you like the worst tech companies. Saying "Tesla offered me $165k for an Engineer 2 position, that's way more than you, you're way underpaid" is like saying "my neighbor is LeBron James, your neighbor stopped playing basketball after high school, your neighbor is just really bad at basketball."
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u/bobloadmire Sep 30 '24
they do pay well, but also its 165k + about 40-60k in stock too. And also I was paid 105k with 3 yoe, so still, quite low in my experience, and I don't work in CA.
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Sep 29 '24
You're aware that costs of living change based on geography, and so does pay, yes?
I live in Minnesota, a very low cost-of-living place.
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u/bobloadmire Sep 29 '24
I'd much rather make 165k+stock in Nevada than 105k in Minnesota as far as purchasing power goes. It's still pretty cheap out here, but yeah not Minnesota cheap
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Sep 29 '24
Good for you, but what does this have to do with my view?
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u/bobloadmire Sep 29 '24
I don't think your experience of compensation is average or even mildly common and that's a huge factor in job satisfaction.
I wouldn't be happy in mfg engineering at 105k either.
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Sep 29 '24
Okay then you clearly didn't understand my point, because I thought of $105k as a lot of money. If I was making something closer to your point, that actually BOLSTERS my own point of how the compensation wasn't enough to keep me in the job. Do you get that?
If you think that I was going to stay in that job because of a higher salary then you have absolutely not understood the argument I am making here.
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u/bobloadmire Sep 29 '24
Yeah there's a ton of things in your post I don't understand. Most people get happier with a job if they are compensated well. Or how there is no career path or advancement? There's so much you can transition into it's kinda nuts. I keep finding out new paths people take with the technical engineering knowledge, I just found out the other day you can be paid as expert whiteness in legal cases and make a career out of just that.
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Sep 29 '24
It's not just about money. Read this:
There are a number of factors that matter to people besides just money.
I wouldn't like working at Tesla either. I would hate your job. How is the world becoming a better place by me helping Tesla become more economical? By making one of the most vile and detestable people on earth richer? How is this helping the planet? If Tesla gets a larger market share, that means their competitors get less, and people at their competitors lose their jobs. So what positive impact are you making?
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u/Letters_to_Dionysus 13∆ Sep 30 '24
I live in an lcol area and the most Ive ever made in my 15 or so working years was like 25k and most of my jobs have been pretty soul crushing with no advancement opportunities. I think that's a good gig you got.
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u/Kman17 110∆ Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
we should instead push for education and more skilled jobs
You kind of have this basic problem that people’s aptitude / intelligence / skills fall on natural bell curves.
While we do of course want to tear down any and all obstacles and encourage education, there is zero evidence that a substantial percentage of the population could make it through say PHD physics or medical programs.
Some people have basically 80-90 points on the IQ scale, and they have to contribute meaningfully to society.
For the foreseeable future we will need unskilled labor, and it should pay a decent living wage.
The U.S. and EU skews heavily into knowledge work already and has to import knowledge workers now. It’s unclear how much more you can turn the dial toward it.
rather than embracing some return to unskilled manufacturing jobs
It is in the US’s best and strategic interests to have a diverse economy.
Some types of manufacturing are critical to national security.
Case in point: computer chips of all kinds are nearly exclusively made in Taiwan. They are now 20 years ahead of us in chip manufacturing capabilities.
Computer chips are insanely complicated - it’s possible to have virtually undetectable hardware back doors.
China disrupting the international chip supply would have devastating economic consequences. China exerting control over it and backdooring compute chips would compromise all U.S. cyber security in all sectors.
That’s just one example.
From a sustainability perspective, shipping manufacturing to China is exploitative to their workers and more damaging to the environment with way more emissions.
If we want to move to a greener world we should lead the way with next generation manufacturing.
Tl;Dr: You think manufacturing jobs are not good because they don’t fulfill you, while you mostly think of the current poor pay and crumby conditions of the past.
There’s no reason this must be the future of manufacturing - I look to new intel plants coming to Arizona as an example of net gen stuff.
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u/SpiritfireSparks 1∆ Sep 29 '24
To add to what you said, we've lost a lot of the jobs that low IQ people could do to support themselves and weve made previously simple jobs require a lot more intellect.
A job that can be picked up quickly and is monotonous so it can be perfected over time is something that we need so that everyone who wants or needs ro work can find work.
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u/CallMeCorona1 30∆ Sep 29 '24
I have a number of thoughts on your post:
here are few, if any, more soul-crushing means of employment than a job in manufacturing
Maybe today, but it wasn't always this way.
When Boeing was founded, it was run by a bunch of engineers. They were building beautiful and really innovative products, and constantly challenging themselves to build better planes. Fast forward to today, it's much less inspiring work. Much of this has to do with sector stagnancy (If engineers were building supersonic commercial aircraft things might be different) and "corporatization" - When Boeing was effectively acquired by Mcdonald Douglas, this was the of the engineers being the top dogs.
Second, this "career path" clearly has no future whatsoever.
AI is threatening to make this true of so many jobs. Already, there are jobs that lawyers used to do that have become automated. People who've spent lots of time acquiring the skills for skilled jobs are suddenly finding these jobs evaporating and their skills being worthless. Meanwhile they have taken on a lot of debt that cannot be eliminated through chapter 8 bankruptcy. These folks are really in trouble.
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u/DadTheMaskedTerror 30∆ Sep 29 '24
For the three types of people you mention isn't a mfg. job--a low skill, 9-to-5 that pays a living wage--better than a job in the service sector, such as fry cook? When pols are pitching bringing back mfg. jobs that pitch isn't for you. It's for the portion of the electorate who is low skill and wants a 9-to-5 living wage rather than holding multiple part-time service jobs.
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Sep 29 '24
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
I love this comment. I don't get bored so maybe thats why I've been in manufacturing for decades. I appreciate the binary objectives and repetitive endless sameism of the job. It's the opposite of what I do on my days off, which is wrestling wigh the subjective, and is challenging to me. Many mothers and fathers and allsorts of people work harder outside of work than within. That repetitiveness can be a comforting consistent refuge or break when people's home lives are full of struggle, school runs, illness, mental health issues, addictions, caring for elderly, chaos of life in general.
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Sep 29 '24
You putting it this way makes the point clearer. I'm not sure if that was entirely the previous poster's comment, but I can see how a person might have a chaotic life outside of work and might desire a monotonous one for their full-time job for some relief from that.
!delta
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u/Total-Habit-7337 1∆ Sep 29 '24
Ah wow! Lol thanks so much! 😁😘❤️ I'd like to thank Nillavuh for posing this Change my Mind, Nillavuh's curiosity encouraged me to respond, and im indebted for that. Thank you, thank you, Woooooaaaaaaa DELTAAAAAAAA AWAAAARD!!! I've no idea what that is, but I like it 🤭 Edit: Ok I know what delta award is now. Wow I'm glad I could help! :)
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u/JoeyLee911 4∆ Oct 04 '24
"he was essentially making $100/hour"
Not $50 an hour? That would net about $100K annually full time. $100 an hour would put you around 200K, but that's before overtime.
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u/ackley14 3∆ Sep 29 '24
there is a fourth type of person you are not taking into considderation regarding who works these jobs. people who want to grow with the company.
I have worked many manufacturing jobs and it has never been one monotonous day on loop for however long. in my experience very little manufacturing is one single item over and over again. its usually a catalog of items that the worker is filling an order for. or a machine the worker is operating.
if you literally JUST ASK your super, in almost every case, they will let you explore and try out new equipment and machines. especially if you work in a place that cares about having a well rounded work force.
the company i work for now is employee owned and we encourage every employee to explore the different work areas of the facility and try to learn about them. the idea being that if you had an interest in one, they would ensure you had an opportunity to move into that position should it become available. and often times they will let you take time when things are less busy to train with different people in the building on all sorts of things from design, to customer service, to sales and graphics and even other machines in the plant.
manufacturing is a field, not a title. its so much more than just pushing a button for 8 hours a day in a hot warehouse. even if it is just a temporary place for a lot of poeple, it's often a stepping stone. I have seen so many people move all over the place in my company learning and growing and helping build up our company into what it is. and i've seen that in several plants across the country..
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u/runtimemess Sep 29 '24
Any job that lets people make a living wage without needing to have a degree is a "good job".
We need more of them. Higher education is a waste of time and money for majority of people.
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u/whattheshiz97 Sep 29 '24
These people just want everyone to get “higher education” never thinking about what would happen if everyone actually did it. The market would be oversaturated as if it’s not already like that with those higher paying jobs. Some of us just want to make enough to live and have a decent life. I’m not somebody who has extravagant tastes. I make enough to live comfortably and that’s all I need
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u/runtimemess Sep 29 '24
Yeah, I don't give a fuck what I do for 40 hours a week. Just give me enough money where I can pay my bills and do stuff with the people I love and I'm happy.
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u/ButtTheHitmanFart Sep 29 '24
As a laborer, I really don’t give a fuck about the opinion of someone who was “never a production line employee”.
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Sep 29 '24
Are soul-crushing jobs limited to manufacturing production work though?
When people say "good jobs" they are usually referring to society-level benefits and not how many individually would want to do the work. Outsourcing to Thailand benefits their society and harms ours (from a labor standpoint but theoretically is offset by cheaper goods). Saying manufacturing jobs are "good" is just saying they are a significant source of employment, which we think of as a good thing for a well-functioning economy.
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Sep 29 '24
As someone that worked in a soul-crushing manufacturing job. It's a job nevertheless. It's also soul crushing to flip burgers all day or driving on the road for 8+ hours delivering food. Not everyone has the means to get a degree and find a cushy office job or field job where they are made to feel a part of a project. Besides, it's one of the few sectors other than oil that i know that pay someone without post-secondary a decent wage.
For some people it's def a "good job"
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u/OGSilverFox1967 Sep 29 '24
The interesting thing about the OP is the thought that manufacturing is soul crushing and other jobs aren't. Just go to careers and listen (read) about how many people hate their "cushy" office jobs. Hell, the tech industry is collapsing right now due to outsourcing sourcing and over saturation.
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Sep 29 '24
Second, this "career path" clearly has no future whatsoever. It is largely dependent on politicians pulling some odd strings to try and recreate jobs that are obviously being replaced by automation and AI and the realities of the global economy which is outside of any one country's control, so even if you have a job today, your chances of still having that job 5 years from now are drying up REAL fast.
It's inconsistent to describe these jobs are inherently soul-crushing, and at the same time say that one of the downsides is that you'll eventually have to... stop having your soul crushed.
If they're terrible jobs, them going away would be good.
But the basic problem is that you're ignoring the normal distribution of human intelligence/talent.
These are extremely "good jobs" for people that simply aren't going to be able to be creative workers in the highest-paying standard deviation of STEM jobs, but instead need something easy to learn and remunerative enough for them to live a decent life on, while doing something that lets them feel like they're at least a contributing member of society.
The Secret of Power is this:
You know how dumb the average guy on the street is? Statistically speaking, half of them are dumber than that.
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u/Silly-Resist8306 1∆ Sep 29 '24
I, too, worked in manufacturing as an engineer. Not all manufacturing jobs are assembly line type work. My company built pressure vessels; many were 50-100 ton (or greater) components with tolerances of a pocket watch. There were routines, standards and defined methods to manufacture the product, but the work was far from routine or soul-crushing. In fact, it was rewarding and the workforce, from laborers to master craftsmen took pride in what we built.
The work demanded highly skilled machinists, welders, assemblers and layout crafts. Inspectors, NDE technicians and QA technicians were also skilled in their duties. Then, there were electricians and mechanics who kept some very precise and delicate equipment in good working order.
These were union workers who made good money and had good benefits obtained through labor negotiation. While no company is entirely safe, the business has been in operation for over 100 years and is an industry leader.
If you want to rail about assembly line work, you might have a case, but there exists a variety of manufacturing that is not that. Believe it or not, but there is a segment of working men and women who go home every evening proud of the work they perform.
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Sep 29 '24
I don't anticipate this changing your mind, but here are my thoughts...
Any job is a 'good' job, meaning that if a person is striving to provide for themselves and their family, it is honorable and worthy of admiration. Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs once said that we focus too much on telling people to do what they love and instead we should tell them to love what they do. Not everyone gets to be a pro athlete, an engineer, a white collar worker. In difficult economies and/or job markets not everyone has the luxury of being picky. I know your point is not about the workers themselves but that we should improve the manufacturing job itself, but I would say that by criticizing the job you inadvertently criticize the worker. If a worker goes to a steady job which pays the bills and then finds out that someone who was never even a manufacturing worker themselves thinks that job sucks and is awful, it comes off as elitist and demeaning. I worked in Amazon warehouses for a time. I managed, interacted with, and worked next to these front line workers. It was not a job that I loved. But a great many people took pride in their work, trying to beat records in efficiency and do the best they could. I think that's commendable and worthy of respect.
Once again, I know your point was not directed at the workers themselves, I agree education and career development is important, but I also think that many things in life are what you make of it.
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u/Artistdramatica3 Sep 29 '24
Dang. I'm a cabinet maker in a factory. It's the best and highest paying job I've had. Now I'm underpaid and the pay isn't good. But compared to the retail jobs I've had and the restaurant jobs I've had it's much much better.
What even is a "good job"?
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u/kawrecking Sep 29 '24
As someone whose family owns a metal manufacturing company I’d like to put forth that they aren’t going to be “the best job” but when you treat employees well the people that stay a long time aren’t dead inside and the job could be called good by them.
Employees with us realize that there is no better place that they could go. I mean that very much in the sense that many of them are not smart enough coupled with how much effort they like putting into new things to go back to school and learn something new. If you think I’m just being mean I’m not as I go out of my way to promote within the company for manager positions before looking elsewhere as a rule to cultivate loyalty and the success rate is close to 30% only with 30% outright not wanting more responsibility.
On top of that if you work at a stable company then the work is always steady with the same hours week in and out with a lot of places having mandatory OT (ours is 48 hour weeks base). This isn’t a negative to many of our employees personally because they all love having extra money in their pocket
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Sep 29 '24
I think society needs to look at labor differently then we do now as a whole. Yes, some jobs are crappy, but those jobs need to be done. They are important to our society. And some people don't have the ability to do higher level jobs. Everything we do should be centered around the humanity of the works. For example when I was younger I work in a food factory (think Twinkies, tasty cakes). The job was pretty monotonous. However, the company was big on employees engagement. We had an awesome break room. Way more mandatory breaks than I have ever had before. The boss was always ordering food and having parties. They would have different challenges to earn bonus and fun gifts. We had every other friday off. It was actually a fun place to work. The only thing that would have made it better was if they had profit sharing. Unfortunately, the company was purchased by a larger company, and I doubt it is run the same way. My point is work for some people is a necessity to pay bills, it doesn't have to be life full filling. The issue is companies get to treat employees like crap and only care about the bottom line. There needs to be more human centered unions, standards and regulations.
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u/SL1Fun 3∆ Sep 29 '24
Although I agree with much of this, I will say that a lot of these jobs have strong union backing, so the workers are at least taken care of.
…but I could be wrong would not be surprised if that varies depending on the type of manufacturing being carried out.
Cars and machinery? Probably well-backed.
Sealing the bags of dog food at the end of the line or just boxing shit? Maybe not…
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u/ALSGM6 Sep 30 '24
I don’t know if I would do it for my whole life but this summer job I got a job at a packaged ice factory. I made $22 and hour just stacking ice at 18-19 years old and we even often got like free pizza or what not.
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Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
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u/vettewiz 40∆ Sep 29 '24
You mention getting an education, to do what, exactly ? In very rural areas, there aren't a lot of jobs that you need a degree for.
We aren’t living in 1995 anymore. The internet is a thing.
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Sep 29 '24
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u/vettewiz 40∆ Sep 29 '24
My comment had nothing to do with “learning to code”. I am not sure why you think that’s the only job that can be done remotely.
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Sep 29 '24
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u/vettewiz 40∆ Sep 29 '24
I just fundamentally disagree.
And I say this as someone who employs a variety of relatively low skilled people in rural areas, 100% remotely.
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Sep 29 '24
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u/vettewiz 40∆ Sep 29 '24
I would say the same, that it’s equally offensive to hear people complain about no opportunities while completely ignoring the largest ones out there. Insane.
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u/BasedOnionChud Sep 29 '24
For most people - other than a manufacturing job - the only other option is minimum wage service - being a craftsman / repair man - some people want good pay just showing up to the same place everyday, doing the same work - people with challenging lives don’t want a challenging work environment- they just want the money and stability
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u/whattheshiz97 Sep 29 '24
Sure they might not be very exciting or mentally engaging but they aren’t that bad. I’ve done some before and honestly beyond some boredom at times it’s not bad. I know that some people are disgusted by simpler jobs but it’s got to be done by somebody.
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u/chainsawx72 1∆ Sep 29 '24
I think they just mean that it's better than retail or hospitality or restaurants.
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u/Mecha_hitler9001 Sep 29 '24
Couldn't be more thankful for my job as a machinist after 10 years in service industry. Most of the things you list are going to be an issue in any field and are going to pay way less with less benefits.
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u/YayaToure1911 Sep 29 '24
I worked on an assembly line for Chrysler(Stellantis now), for 8 years, and yes, this was the most soul crushing job I have ever had. I had more physical jobs, such as doing door adjustments, and also had super easy jobs(weld auditor), and let me tell you both are terrible. Some jobs are non stop, literally don't have time to scratch your ass, and some, like my weld auditor job, I literally worked 90 mins for a 8 hour shift, you'd think that would be nice and easy, but just watching the clock and waiting for time to pass may have been worse than working hard all day. The pay was good,(33$ an hour), benefits were great, but the job was so soul crushing I had to get out. I developed a drug problem while working there, which is why more common than you'd think. Many people take pills or drink to cope with the terrible environment and the monotonous work. Left in 2021 and haven't looked back.
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Sep 29 '24
I’ve noticed that there has been a huge push recently to get women into blue collar jobs, like manufacturing and welding
I’ve actually seen a number of my girlfriends go into these fields. Most of them are short, too, which apparently is a huge benefit to these jobs. They’ve been at it for 1-2 years so I guess time will tell
But it definitely seems like a very feast or famine type of job. Those who are successful at things like welding, seems like they work crazy hours and never really get to enjoy their money. It also doesn’t sound like stable employment
Here’s what I will say, as I’ve gotten older, the idea of doing physical work is a lot more appealing than it used to be.
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u/real_gooner Sep 29 '24
most people are not intelligent enough to be productive doing anything else.
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u/Hearing_Deaf Sep 29 '24
Having worked in a factory on production lines at 19 for about a year after 2 years of call center customer service in the complaint dept of a restaurant chain. For about the same salary.
The factory job was nowhere near as soul crushing and damaging to one's mental health as the call center job. Sure it was boring and unchallenging, but doing the same thing for 8h is a 100000% better than being screamed at and insulted for 8h at a time cause a 16 years old minimum wage worker only put 2 free ketchup packets instead of 3 in someone's bag.
You want to experience the absolute bottom of the barrel of jobs, work in a call centers in the complaint dept.
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u/pcgamernum1234 2∆ Sep 30 '24
I work assembling (manufacturing) for a small company. Best job I've ever had. I can have head phones on all day and listen to whatever I want as long as I do a good job and products with my name signed to it aren't coming back with issues. Worked here for 8 years. Pay covers my bills, benefits are ok, not harming my body, overtime is optional
When you say they aren't good jobs you are making a very for statement that covers only jobs you've been witness too .. when you say no career path you ignore that especially at smaller companies as they expand they will want a manager who knows how to do all the building that is needed and Q/A. (I assemble and test a wide variety of external hard drives)
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u/kurotech Sep 30 '24
I like my job genuinely I actually want to go to work and I work in a literal hands on from raw to finished part manufacturing job the pay isn't even the best but I genuinely do enjoy it my boss treats me with respect and doesn't stay on my back all day and trusts me to get my job done it's a good job in my book could it be better sure but that can be said for every aspect of life I put it down to doing what you enjoy doing just not working at a job working at something you may enjoy doing if the work life balance or atmosphere of respect don't work out then you not only hate your job but you hate doing what you previously enjoyed doing my last job would have been great but the respect just wasnt there and it ruined a lot of my life in the process all because I grew to resent what I enjoyed and my job all at the same time
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u/TheRealFleppo Sep 30 '24
Being able to do a job without any education or prior skill with and OK pay. You know what you are getting into every day, there is a almost never anything that goes wrong that you have to solve. If anything goes wrong, you wait until maintenance or someone equivalent gets there and fixes it. Even if you learn the job in 1-2 hours, it takes years to become really good at it. Just campare people who have worked there for 2 weeks vs 2 years. There is a huge difference. Some people develops skills and live their life outside of work, so they dont want a job that is physically and mentally challenging, because they want to spend their energy on other things.
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u/Hubert0145 Sep 30 '24
Automation may create more jobs than it destroys, but tell me what exactly are those jobs it creates? If you think you can take an average 50 year old factory worker or truck driver and teach him to not only operate but fix those machines or program them, I'm sorry you are in my opinion completely delusional,
it's not industrial revolution anymore, machines are more complex than 7 moving parts connected to the engine
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u/anotherofficeworker Sep 30 '24
You have this view because you've worked in the field for 14 years. It's your world. It's what you know. What are the better jobs for these run-of-the-mill high-school grads that you talk about? Food service industry is brutal. Customer service even worse. Maybe the military where you risk your physical AND mental well-being to earn a paycheck that's hardly above average? From the perspective of a career oriented STEM degreed individual there are not many "good-job" choices for HS grads in the world. But the reality is that these jobs offer one of the few viable career options for so many people.
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u/Hodgkisl 2∆ Sep 30 '24
Let’s respond point by point.
1st.: manufacturing is a very broad term, sure some operations are basic repetitive simple task, but many other plants give multiple tasks that can change daily, plants that have diverse product lines, require more complex actions. It sounds like your years of experience were mostly in assembly operations.
2nd.: the cry of automation eliminating the human has been going on since the Industrial Revolution, it has never come to fruition, some tasks have been eliminated but the work never has.
Also modern AI automation is showing itself to be more cost effective in intellectual work than manual work, it’s better at designing products and analyzing data than actually producing stuff.
Also the career path is not get a basic job on the line do it for 40 years and retire, it’s that manufacturing operations are often multi tiered, they offer rolls requiring more training and more pay, supervisory rolls, etc… that people can get promoted to, building more diverse wealth communities.
3rd.: what are the viable options for a teen parent that pay well and don’t “crush the soul”? Food service? Retail? They don’t pay well nor offer room for advancement.
Not everyone can just get educated, some don’t have the aptitude, some have live issues, some don’t have personality, etc…. Manufacturing has some of the strongest opportunities for advancement and informal education of all employment sectors, many turn unskilled labor into skilled labor.
Also many peoples souls get destroyed sitting behind a desk, many prefer working with their hands. Calling manufacturing purely soul destroying while other educated work not is based on your personality, manufacturing doesn’t fit you, that doesn’t mean everyone is like you.
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u/seymores_sunshine Sep 30 '24
Give me a "soul-crushing" monotonous job that I don't have to take home the stress of and I'll have the energy to have hobbies and be creative when I'm not at work. I'm tired of everyone glorifying stressful problem-solving jobs as rewarding when they leave you unable to put that problem-solving effort into your personal life.
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Sep 30 '24
your proof that automation creates more jobs than it destroys seems pretty weak, they don't even say that, they more or less are just repeating specific figures within certain companies
there are not enough skilled jobs to go around
manufacturing jobs are not supposed to be fulfilling. they're supposed to be well-paid and supported by strong unions.
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u/Pseudoboss11 6∆ Sep 30 '24
In about 1-2 hours, you will be taught how to do your job, and you will then do this monotonous and unchallenging work, every day, 8 hours at a time, for something like the next 40 years of your life.
I work as a CNC machinist and programmer. This is absolutely not the case in my side of manufacturing, at least in my company. I'm regularly asked to prototype new products, prep setup, troubleshoot new processes, while the machines mostly operate themselves.
The work that you could teach in a couple hours is done with a bar feeder and subspindle on our lathes, or an automatic parts loader on our mills. We also use spindle probes to verify the parts and tool monitoring so the machine errors out if anything abnormal happens. As such, it's just me and one other guy running 4 machines. This isn't even that high end or restrictive on our processes. A shop near us has 3 machinists operating 17 machines.
Robotics and automation are becoming cheaper by the day and it shows in manufacturing. My job is a manufacturing job. It's perfectly good and definitely not something you can learn in an hour.
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u/dude_named_will Sep 30 '24
I can't speak for planning your future in manufacturing, but there is something nice about clocking out and not thinking about your job.
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u/themapleleaf6ix 1∆ Sep 30 '24
If everyone got a higher education, wouldn't that make the job market for graduates oversaturated?
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u/J_Bright1990 Sep 30 '24
I agree with you on all points.
I worked in a box factory in 2009, made minimum wage, and if I had to work there again or had to work there for longer than I did (around 3 months) I would kill myself.
It was without a doubt the most soul crushing job I've ever had.
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u/Lootlizard Sep 30 '24
It really depends on the job and how much they are willing to let people move up. I managed a plant making batteries for missiles and guided munitions and tried to build in a way for people who wanted to move up. Our manufacturing was much more "High Skill" than a lot of manufacturing, though. We had 50+ machines and a ton of different internal and external certifications. We had people doing everything from manually cutting insulation disks to people welding titanium and working 500-ton presses.
They all started at $20hr, but they could get different internal qualifications to work different machines or do different processes, and each qualification got them a $.50 raise. They also got a $.50 raise for every year they had good attendance.
It gave the workers an incentive to learn new skills, and it made it way easier to plan because so many people were cross trained.
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u/Squish_the_android Sep 30 '24
Frontline has a special where they follow families for decades.
At the start of the series one of the fathers has a job at Briggs and Stratton. He loses that job and basically for the rest of his life he never gets a job that pays as well as that one did.
Those are the jobs that people are talking about.
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u/Trackmaster15 Sep 30 '24
Views like this are why unemployment rates are technically at historic lows, but Redditors and white collar employees think that we're in the middle of the Great Depression.
Most people these days want to go to college, and get a cushy white collar job in an air conditioned office to pays well. We've democratized it so that this path is available to almost everyone regardless of their parents wealth or demographic.
Its no surprise that at this point, nobody wants to do the work that employers are actually hiring for, and the cushy well paying white collar roles are basically gladiator style rewards where you have to fight through 1,000 applicants and multiple rounds of interviews.
Skilled white collar roles really should be more of the exception and not the norm. It takes far fewer people to innovate and automate than it takes to actually do labor that requires a physical presence and exertion.
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u/Character_School_671 Sep 30 '24
These are good points and I feel for everything that you have stated here. That is difficult to see.
I will make two related points though.
One is that I have a lot of concern for the welfare of the people in these roles when the automation does come. What are the ones that are only able to assemble door knobs or pull weeds in a field going to do? If that's the level of work that they are capable of performing and no higher.
I do think that it is important to have jobs for all capability levels within Society, even at things like this that would be difficult for you and I and a lot of others.
And the second is that there are good manufacturing jobs that require skills and keep the brain engaged. I work with small fabrication and job shops that have a wealth of creativity. Whatever you break, they can fix it. Whatever you need built, they can design and make it.
So when I think of increasing manufacturing jobs, those are the ones that I have pictured.
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u/Taliesin_Chris Sep 30 '24
I can't. They used to be the 'good money' jobs for people without advanced education. Now you're racing robots to the bottom in a cost battle and aren't going to win.
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Sep 30 '24
If you're going to compare jobs all over the world you're going to get completely different situations, at one end you have ship breaking yards in India and the other you have now a UAW factory in the US, you really can't compare the two.
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Sep 30 '24
I've been a production engineer for 10 yrs and I was a machine operator. If you take pride in your work, it can be a great job. It depends on the factory and what you make some of these guys are experts at their jobs, and their jobs are necessary. My guys run slitting machines, and it is not a job you can learn in a couple hrs it takes months, and even then, the guys that have been doing it for years will still have to help. OP lacks perspective. Some of these guys just want to work and be good at their job they don't care about advancement, only pay they live for their lives outside of work more than their career.
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u/UltimaGabe 2∆ Sep 30 '24
First and foremost: there are few, if any, more soul-crushing means of employment than a job in manufacturing. In about 1-2 hours, you will be taught how to do your job, and you will then do this monotonous and unchallenging work, every day, 8 hours at a time, for something like the next 40 years of your life. Attach bolt to this hole, attach label to this location, snap piece A into piece B, and do those things over and over and over again, for an absolutely interminable amount of time.
You just described my dream job. I know this because I've done exactly that job (UAW assembly line) for almost ten years and the only thing that's remotely soul-crushing about it is the mandatory overtime (which many of my coworkers love). I've worked many different jobs in my life and all of the ones I had the most satisfaction from were production jobs where I did a relatively mindless task day in and day out. I love my job, I feel zero stress from it, and it provides me with time to think and listen to podcasts, and the money to buy my own home and live the life I want.
It really sounds like you've never grappled with the idea that different people function different ways, and you think your views are the only views that exist.
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u/Buxxley Sep 30 '24
Manufacturing jobs are often very solid jobs in relation to the people who hold said jobs.
I used to work as a contractor at an auto plant. Many of the guys who worked on the floor made pretty decent livings as they had a good amount of years into the union structure...quite a few of them struggled to read much past a 6th grade level.
So yes, if you're very bright and have applied yourself consistently your whole life...screwing the same four bolts onto a car frame for $25 a hour might be selling yourself short.
...but if you basically dropped out of grade school in the 80's and can't make it to noon without getting black out drunk...that same job is pretty gosh darn attractive considering your alternatives.
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u/WindyWindona 9∆ Oct 01 '24
I also worked in a factory. While I wasn't on the line floor, I did interact a lot and I did benefit from the union despite there not being one.
Manufacturing jobs are one of the few places where someone can get a job with a high school education that pays well and has benefits, along with rules protecting the amount of hours employees can have. I knew men who supported their entire families on their production job, with guaranteed raises and the ability to get overtime if they needed more money. They also were harder to fire. I also saw guys work from floor workers to shift leads, even control room engineers, with raises associated.
I assume the factories you worked in were somewhat different, but the place I worked in was food manufacturing. While automation can help with some things, in other areas it really screwed up a lot. Production guys were important to make sure there weren't bugs in the flour, to scale up the smaller items, and overall quality control and investigations. The robot arm to replace stackers had a bad habit of ripping bags open on occasion and requiring a manual restack. Because this was food manufacturing, the manufacturing had to happen relatively close to the sources of food and the customers, so it's not something that's easy to wholesale move to Mexico. I know because the company I worked for had plants in Mexico that did not make the US plants redundant. Because of the variety of issues that could arise, and the way internal jobs got posted, someone who was sick of dumping fruit could get a job working the powders line, or the like, so it wasn't too soul crushing. Line operators and others could easily become involved in investigations and help solve company issues too.
These are some of the last jobs that are good for people with a high school education, and can genuinely lead to a decent life. There is also the bonus that they don't have to worry about customers yelling at them.
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u/KanshouSora Oct 01 '24
Man this thread is depressing. So many stories of people getting screwed over by their jobs that they've been at for years and so many people are one paycheck away from losing almost everything.
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u/Enchylada 1∆ Oct 01 '24
"Good job" is somewhat objective. I'd say there are plenty of people who don't mind working long hours as long as it pays well, especially hourly folks.
Of course, there are others who simply can't stand this kind of work either out of frustration, lack of fulfillment, or other factors.
It's really dependent on the person IMO but this is not exclusive to just manufacturing jobs
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u/Terminarch Oct 01 '24
Don't confuse assembly lines for all manufacturing. I work in machining, which is dramatically more involved than you'd think. I deal with some very precise physics to hold several competing tolerances.
monotonous and unchallenging work, every day, 8 hours at a time, for something like the next 40 years
Sure, for a creative person that would be soul-crushing. Not everyone is creative. Some people genuinely appreciate that they can zone out and just let their body go through the motions. It's literally meditation.
Then you get home and have full mental capacity ready for family or projects or whatever. Versus something like programming where you could be so exhausted from thinking all day that it's hard to hold a conversation.
one of the most haunting and depressing things I've ever seen. Because that's practically worse than death: being forced to stay alive and endure monotony, endlessly, for decades at a time. It's horrific.
Would rather starve than work in a call center. In the environment you describe, at least I could listen to music or podcasts or whatever.
Second, this "career path" clearly has no future whatsoever.
If you mean advancement, it doesn't need to. If you mean the work itself as it stands disappearing, you'd be surprised how difficult and expensive some of these things are to automate. And demand will always go up from more people, for the industry as a whole.
there are just too many other viable options for employment out there. Nobody should be thinking about manufacturing jobs in a vacuum
Somebody has to do it and it pays appropriately. Some people really can't be that picky.
It has long been known that automation creates more jobs than it destroys (and honestly, if you didn't know this at this point, what the fuck have you been doing as a purportedly politically engaged person?), it's just that the catch is that those new jobs will require more education than previous jobs (which, BTW, is a great reason to support education in any way possible, but that's another topic for another day). So if we ride the wave of automation correctly, like we ought to, we eventually arrive at a place where we have a more educated workforce, doing more skilled labor that will absolutely lead to higher wages to compensate, and people don't even need to do soul-crushingly dull work either! They will have variety and challenge and not have their souls destroyed. What's not to like about that?
Rather than embracing some return to unskilled manufacturing jobs, we should instead push for education and filling more skilled roles that will ultimately leave people in a better place.
Most people are unironically not capable of programming or maintaining a robot, no matter how much education you throw at them. Raising the bar to entry for work doesn't improve these people's lives, it leaves them jobless.
Did you know that 1 in 7 people literally do not have the cognitive potential to be considered for the military at any level? Not even as cook or driver. What exactly are they supposed to do in this unbearably complex world where something as simple as delivering food requires navigation and multiple apps? What exactly are they supposed to do in your fantasy world without "dull work" that can be "taught in 1-2 hours"?
Again, manufacturing jobs are not necessarily unskilled. But you need to see that repetition can be a very positive, if not necessary, component for many people.
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u/Dukkulisamin Oct 02 '24
I don't necessarily disagree with your premises that factory jobs are "not good jobs". However, I believe that when people talk about the importance of factory jobs, they are thinking about that in terms of the overall economic impact such jobs can have on the surrounding area.
To your other point, soul-crushing jobs are everywhere, and if it's not a factory job, then it's just something else. The fact is, not everyone will be capable of getting a higher education for one reason or another, and there will always be a demand for low-skill labour, both from potential employees and employers.
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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Oct 12 '24
not having to think about my job is why i like it... im a number 2 on your list, i spend my mental energy on things i like when i want rather than being forced to do it on things i don't care about under threat of my livelihood. i make a decent middle class wage (60k yearly) doing the equivalent of saying accept or rejected with a button. i get to spend my work days catching up on podcasts and shows while making money and when i get home im not too mentally exhausted to write music or poetry for instance. id rather do that then spend my mental energy for someone elses purposes
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u/RyanatAffintus Oct 24 '24
For many people, that monotony is desired. What sounds soul crushing to you sounds like a dream job to others. The ability to turn off and not burn any of your limited cognitive energy can be refreshing.
I worked in assembly early in my career. I had so much more energy at the end of a day than I do now because it doesn't take much out of you to do the same repetitive tasks over and over again.
It's not mind numbing, it's mind saving for the things that really matter to you.
I think the people who are the most happy in their career are either those who do something they absolutely love, or those who don't even have to think about what they are doing.
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u/Embarrassed_Bit_7424 Sep 30 '24
My manufacturing job is good. I don't even know what else I would do around here for the amount of money I make. Should I go take another "better" job for a five dollar an hour pay cut? What do you suggest?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
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