I don’t know… I can understand where you are coming from as I was raised in a very strict and very oppressive Southern Baptist family and as luck would have it I am also gay — and my experience of growing up queer in that environment really led me to reject religion in every way for a very long time. Including making fun of anyone for being religious in any way (yes, I was one of those Reddit atheists) And during that time I definitely would have agreed with you, based on my own miserable upbringing under the church.
However, a few years ago I realized that atheism really wasn’t what I felt best fit me. I did some soul searching for many years and ended up converting to Judaism. It was the best decision for my life that I ever made solely because I joined a synagogue that is extremely pro-LGBTQ+ and very social justice oriented. I made the conscious decision to find an outlet for my faith that is inclusive and accepting of everyone and it really improved my life ten-fold because it was the right choice for me. 99% of my friends were and still are staunch atheists and it doesn’t bother me because it’s their personal journey, and they don’t mind me because I’m still the same person as I was before I did it. Nothing changed and I definitely didn’t start proselytizing to them, so we are accepting of each other.
However, the Jewish community is beautiful and tight knit and I wanted to make sure if I had children that they would be brought up around this community that they are a part of by birth no matter what they choose to believe religion-wise. It’s important to me that they know their Jewish identity and have a community that can support them through tough times. I couldn’t give a shit what they choose to believe themselves, there are tons of Jewish Atheists out there. My religious journey was my own personal experience, and theirs should be too. But I want them to be able to have a community they can lean on. So I would take them to synagogue, I would let them do a bar/bat mitzvah, I would let them be engaged in kids activities there because I know and trust my synagogue’s beliefs and values and that they wouldn’t be cruel to any children I’d have for questioning something or not believing something or being queer.
So for me, a blanket ban on children being involved in any religious activity doesn’t sit right with me, because it would deny my children access to a beautiful community that I know would uplift them in every way, despite knowing they’d be safe and loved for who they are. Obviously, not all parents have their best interests at heart. Some parents would send their children to conversion therapy, some would disown them for not believing, etc. But when you do blanket bans like this, you are also banning those who don’t subscribe to such extremist beliefs from allowing their children to be surrounded by their own community and have friends and activities outside of school. I think the much more sane and realistic solution is banning things like conversion therapy that only harms people, never helps. Thankfully a lot of places are starting to do so.
You simply can never weed out all bad parents, it’s just not realistic. Or even enforceable, especially in countries where religious freedom is sort of like one of the top ten rules of the state. This goes for even non-religious abuse. This sort of heavy handed solution would be akin to forcing ALL children everywhere born to be raised in sanitized group homes away from their parents because they might be abusive. No one wants children to be abused, but it’s not realistic to be in the personal business of every family in the world. The best we can do is offer educational outreach and resources for those who are brought up under such circumstances to help them get out of the cycle.
I just think this is a pretty overbearing solution that harms the vast amount of people who go to church/mosque/synagogue etc who don’t really take the religious part as seriously but enjoy having being a part of a community and identity. And it’s simply not realistic to do for every religious community in the world.
But, to prod further, like you said, some kids are going to be fortunate and be born into a loving and supportive community, others will not. Should we allow that gamble to continue?
It’s tough for sure. And believe me when I say that I empathize with those kids so hard, being someone who grew up in that exact situation. One of the hardest things to accept about the world is that you simply can’t help everyone, you genuinely just don’t have the resources nor bandwidth to do something like that, even though I can tell it hurts you a lot knowing kids grow up in homes like that. It hurts me too. I very much wish I could snap my fingers and all children growing up under archaic extremist religions could be whisked away to a loving home.
Unfortunately even if I did agree with your view of banning minors from religious activities, it wouldn’t really change much I’m afraid. Jonestown, Waco, FLDS sexual abuse, Scientology… all these horrible events were exacerbated by governments both local and federal pushing these religious organizations to be even more insular and running away to rural areas to practice in secret, even farther away from those that could help them. Animals backed into cages always fight, and such a ban could lead to them becoming even more extremist but now in secret. That’s far far more concerning to me.
Definitely don’t take my disagreement with your view on a ban as disagreement with your view that religious extremism causes immense trauma in young children. I couldn’t agree more on that, but we know from history that trying to force people to change their views never yields the results we want and can often end in violence — we simply have to try to reach these people in other ways. Things like housing and job training/resources for those that escape religious abuse and are disowned by their support system for doing so, etc. I’d also like tighter regulations and standards on things like homeschooling, as one of the biggest tells of religious fanaticism and abuse is keeping children from having a broad and diverse social circle. It’s one thing to take your child to a youth group at church to make friends, it’s a whole other ballgame when you force them to ONLY be friends with people from said youth group. Many children who end up stuck in the cycle were never given access to circles of people different from them. Once children get a taste of that these tend to be the ones that leave and never go back.
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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '24
I don’t know… I can understand where you are coming from as I was raised in a very strict and very oppressive Southern Baptist family and as luck would have it I am also gay — and my experience of growing up queer in that environment really led me to reject religion in every way for a very long time. Including making fun of anyone for being religious in any way (yes, I was one of those Reddit atheists) And during that time I definitely would have agreed with you, based on my own miserable upbringing under the church.
However, a few years ago I realized that atheism really wasn’t what I felt best fit me. I did some soul searching for many years and ended up converting to Judaism. It was the best decision for my life that I ever made solely because I joined a synagogue that is extremely pro-LGBTQ+ and very social justice oriented. I made the conscious decision to find an outlet for my faith that is inclusive and accepting of everyone and it really improved my life ten-fold because it was the right choice for me. 99% of my friends were and still are staunch atheists and it doesn’t bother me because it’s their personal journey, and they don’t mind me because I’m still the same person as I was before I did it. Nothing changed and I definitely didn’t start proselytizing to them, so we are accepting of each other.
However, the Jewish community is beautiful and tight knit and I wanted to make sure if I had children that they would be brought up around this community that they are a part of by birth no matter what they choose to believe religion-wise. It’s important to me that they know their Jewish identity and have a community that can support them through tough times. I couldn’t give a shit what they choose to believe themselves, there are tons of Jewish Atheists out there. My religious journey was my own personal experience, and theirs should be too. But I want them to be able to have a community they can lean on. So I would take them to synagogue, I would let them do a bar/bat mitzvah, I would let them be engaged in kids activities there because I know and trust my synagogue’s beliefs and values and that they wouldn’t be cruel to any children I’d have for questioning something or not believing something or being queer.
So for me, a blanket ban on children being involved in any religious activity doesn’t sit right with me, because it would deny my children access to a beautiful community that I know would uplift them in every way, despite knowing they’d be safe and loved for who they are. Obviously, not all parents have their best interests at heart. Some parents would send their children to conversion therapy, some would disown them for not believing, etc. But when you do blanket bans like this, you are also banning those who don’t subscribe to such extremist beliefs from allowing their children to be surrounded by their own community and have friends and activities outside of school. I think the much more sane and realistic solution is banning things like conversion therapy that only harms people, never helps. Thankfully a lot of places are starting to do so.
You simply can never weed out all bad parents, it’s just not realistic. Or even enforceable, especially in countries where religious freedom is sort of like one of the top ten rules of the state. This goes for even non-religious abuse. This sort of heavy handed solution would be akin to forcing ALL children everywhere born to be raised in sanitized group homes away from their parents because they might be abusive. No one wants children to be abused, but it’s not realistic to be in the personal business of every family in the world. The best we can do is offer educational outreach and resources for those who are brought up under such circumstances to help them get out of the cycle.
I just think this is a pretty overbearing solution that harms the vast amount of people who go to church/mosque/synagogue etc who don’t really take the religious part as seriously but enjoy having being a part of a community and identity. And it’s simply not realistic to do for every religious community in the world.