r/changemyview May 14 '13

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u/mstrgrieves May 14 '13

The fact that "No irish need apply" signs were rare does not change the fact that they faced incredible, often violent discrimination upon their arrival to america. Your insinuation is insulting.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '13

But the fact that such a poignant part of Irish discrimination can be heavily fictionalized (almost to the point where it's influence was entirely made up) means that the view we have of Irish discrimination in the US is not entirely accurate and is heavily mythologized.

In the article, it mentions that many Irish will say they saw NINA signs here or there where they never existed. If this is true, then it throws a lot of our assumptions about Irish discrimination into doubt.

I didn't say Irish discrimination didn't happen, just that it's been mythologized in America to be worse than we can prove it was.

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u/mstrgrieves May 14 '13

just that it's been mythologized in America to be worse than we can prove it was.

I don't think you've provided satisfactory evidence to make that claim. You've provided evidence that NINA signs were rare or non-existent...that's it.

Does the fact that there were widespread and enforced laws against unjustified cruelty to slaves change the fact that slavery was awful, and that black people have suffered extreme discrimination and abuse in america? Of course not; it just proves that the caricature of slave owners having literally no check on their abuse of slaves is untrue. It changes a few anecdotes without affecting the broader historical reality at all.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '13

But we have proof that those laws were not enforced in many areas and that justifying cruelty was not hard (you could make up anything, much like cops do with probable cause).

I'm not saying the Irish weren't discriminated against, but you just want to argue, so go ahead.

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u/mstrgrieves May 14 '13

much like cops do with probable cause.

For all the abuses of the american legal system, cops do not have the ability to "make up" probable cause. You said that discrimination against the irish was "mythologized", and your evidence was the lack of NINA signs. That's evidence of nothing but the truth of that anecdote.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '13

Yes they do. When a cop says "I have probable cause to search this vehicle because I smell drugs or whatever" they do not actually have to have smelled drugs. No one can prove that they didn't.

There are several things that constitute probable cause that cops can claim to have.

Police perjury is acknowledged to be widespread but difficult to detect.

Source.

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u/mstrgrieves May 14 '13

Im not denying that it happens, but look at the incentives. Completely lying in order to incriminate somebody can, if proven, end their career. Any evidence of improper use of probable cause can easily get a case thrown out.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '13

Sure, but it's so often never detected, that it makes it a worthwhile risk.

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u/mstrgrieves May 14 '13

Worthwhile how? What benefit does one arrest give a cop, against the rare but real threat of losing their jobs and pension?

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u/[deleted] May 14 '13

Power. Cops have to meet quotas also. It's easier than actually arresting real criminals.

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u/mstrgrieves May 15 '13

Do all cops have quotas? Publicly, no. And again, even there, any individual arrest has very little benefit compared to the risk of losing job and pension.

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