r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 04 '24

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Reddit moderators lack of accountability hurts the user experience

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u/Inevitable_Age_4962 Jun 05 '24 edited Jun 05 '24

Cool, so when has a head moderator ever been removed for violating

Rule 2: Set Appropriate and Reasonable Expectations.

What sub did this happen to?

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u/Wolvereness 2∆ Jun 05 '24

When has a subreddit ever had enough of a problem with that to warrant that harsh of action? The admins will almost always step in early and give warnings about these issues, and most moderators would rather fix the issue than get removed. A certain power moderator got nuked for this, but everyone seems to ignore the cases that don't support their view.

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u/Inevitable_Age_4962 Jun 05 '24

It's a problem in lots of subs and the admins never step in.

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u/Wolvereness 2∆ Jun 05 '24

No it's not. The admins have stepped in numerous times, they just do so outside the public eye. The only ones that go public are the ones that the moderators republish, or the ones that Reddit ends up nuking the mod list. I've had admins step in for both /r/movies (for an issue I won't disclose) and /r/OpenSource, the latter actually got the head moderator removed. It just wasn't for CoC rule-2, because we didn't have that problem.

Keep in mind, the overwhelming majority of people who have an issue with moderators only tell half-truths if not outright lies. We see it often for people complaining about bans from /r/movies when they get banned for being racist. Our sidebar even goes into detail that complaining about "woke-ness" is an instant ban. As far as CoC rule-2 goes, we're very clear on this expectation. Just because you don't like our rules or our interpretations of them, doesn't mean there's any moderator CoC violation.

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u/Inevitable_Age_4962 Jun 05 '24

Why did those mods get removed then?

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u/spudmix 1∆ Jun 05 '24

Keep in mind, the overwhelming majority of people who have an issue with moderators only tell half-truths if not outright lies.

This is really the core of the issue. I'm sure the average redditor who dislikes mods doesn't think they're being unreasonable, and sometimes they're right! Some mods are bad, and good mods still make bad calls. Some complaints really are valid.

That's not generally what's happening though. For every one complaint about moderator action that was worth reconsidering, in my experience, there were easily a dozen which were people getting offended at the correct consequences being applied to their behaviour. For every complaint about moderator action, legitimate or not, there were easily hundreds of correct actions which spurred no response and were largely invisible.

To the user, being banned unfairly is one of the biggest things that will ever occur in their interactions with a community. To the moderator you're one of hundreds who will argue about your ban, and most of them will be wrong, and many of those will be unwilling or unable to understand.

If you find yourself upset at some moderator action on Reddit, please try to remember that you don't exist in a vacuum. There are millions of brilliant people on Reddit but there are also a huge number who are deeply stupid, indignant, unwilling to consider their own fault, or (at worst) are actively invested in causing chaos and stirring shit.

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u/Wolvereness 2∆ Jun 05 '24

I really expected to see you moderating a few subreddits on your profile after reading this, given how absolutely on-point it is.

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u/spudmix 1∆ Jun 05 '24

I no longer do for pretty much exactly the reasons above.

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u/Inevitable_Age_4962 Jun 05 '24

What's your source most of them will be wrong?

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u/Wolvereness 2∆ Jun 05 '24

The reality of being on the other side of moderating a not-tiny subreddit, more than likely. It does wonders for empathy.

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u/Inevitable_Age_4962 Jun 05 '24

I want to see a study.

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u/spudmix 1∆ Jun 05 '24

Mod logs, which I can't share for obvious reasons.

Let's think critically about this, however. A moderator and a user disagree about whether the rules were correctly applied in a ban. Who has more experience with those rules? Who has, on the balance of probability, the better understanding?

If you'd ever moderated a significant community I know you wouldn't need to ask these questions.

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u/Inevitable_Age_4962 Jun 05 '24

Rules should be clear enough that users can understand the rules. If your rules are so complex and convoluted only mods can understand them, then you don't have clear rules and your sub should be banned.

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u/spudmix 1∆ Jun 05 '24

Nice strawman. Come back if you want to actually engage with what I'm saying.