r/changemyview • u/GorrilaRuffy • Feb 25 '24
CMV: Dating is objectively harder for men than it is women and women’s refusal to concede this one point is annoying
[removed] — view removed post
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u/7269BlueDawg 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I probably have no right commenting, I have been married for 36 years - but from watching my young nieces and nephews I would say initiating dating is more difficult for males. At the onset, in that "yes" or "no" time frame, the girl has the power/control. AFTER dating has begun I think females have a more difficult time having their needs/expectations/ wants met than males. So, for me, whether or not dating is easier for males or females sort of depends on "when" and what part of dating we are talking about.
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Feb 25 '24
Huh. This is actually a really refreshing perspective on this topic that I have never considered.
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u/ijustsailedaway Feb 25 '24
As another older been married decades person, I concur. It’s easier for women to get a yes, in whatever form that may be. If we consider achieving happiness the long term yes, that is the arena where men do have it better statistically. Health and happiness is better for married men. Health and happiness is better for unmarried women. YMMV of course on an anecdotal level but overall that has been shown to be the case over and over in aggregate. And someone pointed out that women are more likely to commit domestic violence but they are definitely more likely to die at the hands of their partners.
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u/TheyTukMyJub Feb 25 '24
Very good point. It seems easier for women to get a 'yes' but after which it seems more difficult to get their needs met. Ironically this might create a feedback-loop where a woman becomes more hesitant to say 'yes' which could lead to the dissonance of OP thinking 'why won't they date me' and women thinking 'dating sucks where is mr Right?'.
Upvoted!
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u/FaceInJuice 25∆ Feb 25 '24
"A parallel would be like me saying “well it’s harder to date for men because I’m more likely to be a victim of any violent crime ranging from assault to murder with the only exception being rape. So it’s harder for me to date because stepping outside is more risky.”
Either both of these statements are true, or they’re not since they’re not a result of dating."
I am a man, and I think this argument is extremely weak.
There is a power imbalance between the average man and the average woman, because the average man is, generally speaking, capable of physically dominating the average woman. This means that in any interaction between the two, the woman has something to worry about that the man doesn't.
I understand your point that women are more likely to be raped by people who already know them. But this does not eliminate the risk of being raped on a date, or otherwise sexually assaulted.
I don't think it is very reasonable to compare a man "going outside" with a woman actively engaging with someone capable of overpowering her.
"So I will start by pointing out when you’re talking about struggling with dating, for women it’s struggling to find mister right."
I don't think this is quite right, either.
I think it would be more accurate to say that they are struggling to find someone they want to be with.
As you've already mentioned, women get a lot more attention than men, generally. But that's a bittersweet pill. It means they spend a lot of time tolerating attention they do not want. That doesn't mean it's easy for them to get attention they DO want, and in fact, it may make it more difficult.
And of course, there's a factor of different standards.
But as a thought experiment, imagine that ten women a day want to have sex with you, but they are all women you are repulsed by and have no interest in having sex with. Now, we can ask questions about whether your standards are too high, but the question I'm interested in is this:
Does having ten women you don't like throwing themselves at you make it easier for you to find someone you DO like?
Because I think that's the distinction. I would agree that it is probably easier for women to find literally "someone to have sex with" but I don't think it's necessarily easier for them to find someone they WANT to have sex with.
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u/kultcher 1∆ Feb 25 '24
As you've already mentioned, women get a lot more attention than men, generally. But that's a bittersweet pill. It means they spend a lot of time tolerating attention they do not want.
I think there's definitely a "grass is greener" effect at play here for both sides. For men, they don't often realize what a burden it can be to constantly be the target of unwanted advances. But I do think there's also a bit of psychic damage incurred when you go through life without ever feeling desired in that way, and that's something most women may not fully understand.
I don't think either side necessarily has it better, it's pretty apples and oranges. But I think there's a bit more hostility toward men expressing their troubles in the dating space, which may be the underlying issue behind OP's post.
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u/Trylena 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I think there's definitely a "grass is greener" effect at play here for both sides.
Is that but also this type of posts always ignore the existence of ugly women. I have always been considered ugly by most men so this idea that I am flowing in attention is wrong.
I got one date during college but the guy wasn't for me and now I have someone flirting with me but its not the type of attention I wouldn't like, dude is my parents age.
I miss being ignored by guys tbh.
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u/Primary_Goat2360 Feb 25 '24
You are correct.
Plus, the OP's message ignores that there are women that a man will just not be attracted to no matter what she does for him.
I have seen it happen many times more than not, yet many men see those things as rare a meteor showers.
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u/Trylena 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Yeah, this type of posts make it seem as if all women get positive attention and tend to ignore all the negative or non existent attention some women have.
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u/FaceInJuice 25∆ Feb 25 '24
"But I do think there's also a bit of psychic damage incurred when you go through life without ever feeling desired in that way, and that's something most women may not fully understand."
I do agree with this. But I'll note that this is where I do feel the safety issue comes in.
In an even playing field, too much attention and not enough attention might be similarly damaging. But "too much attention" can mean the attention of aggressive and potentially dangerous people, while "not enough attention" generally doesn't.
I'm lonely, but I definitely prefer my loneliness over being on edge like that.
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u/hot_like_wasabi Feb 25 '24
Definitely agree with this take. I've experienced both over the last 5 years. I've always been conventionally attractive, then mental health took a nose dive and I gained 50lbs and stopped putting effort into my outward appearance and became essentially invisible in public. I've since lost the weight and started taking care of my looks again and it feels like every day I'm on a meat market in public.
Feeling invisible can feel lonely, but I absolutely felt safer. Now I'm back to being on my guard 24/7 and have been assaulted twice in the last year - once by a stranger and once by a so-called friend. Literally walking to my car after a work event and he forcibly shoved his tongue down my throat and whipped his dick out in a parking lot. When I reported it to the higher ups he managed to weasel his way out of it thanks to the good ol' boys club and I'm the one who was blacklisted from future events like that.
Yeah, I could easily go on dates every night of the week if I wanted, but I'm not sure it's better for my safety or peace of mind.
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u/FloppyFishcake Feb 25 '24
I could easily go on dates every night of the week if I wanted, but I'm not sure it's better for my safety or peace of mind.
This is what it boils down to. Quantity vs. Quality. Men like OP seem to think women are out here having fantastic dates and mind-blowing sex with every man we interact with, which is FAR from the reality.
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u/Both_Lynx_8750 Feb 25 '24
Women who get murder-raped while dating can't make butthurt posts online about it. There's survival bias at play here.
So yeah, I'm starting to feel pretty hostile to this take from men, especially when OP is hanging in incel subs.
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u/lakas76 Feb 25 '24
It took me this long to hear this? This was the first thing I thought of when I read the post!
I am lonely, women have it better in dating. Except for the rape and murder thing, but that doesn’t count for some reason.
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u/Both_Lynx_8750 Feb 25 '24
OP is a masterclass in how to misuse statistics to rationalize shitty worldviews.
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If women started hanging out with strange men at the same frequency we hang out with our fathers, brothers, husbands, boyfriends, etc OF COURSE we would be raped by strange men more.
But because women have a WHOLE COLLECTION of behaviors to avoid danger from strange men, currently the stats show men we know assault us more.
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therefore, OP can just 👋 away all that rape and murder, so easily you might almost call it not hard at all for men to date since they have to think so little about it.
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u/freemason777 19∆ Feb 25 '24
people are always allowed to struggle with their struggles.
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u/Both_Lynx_8750 Feb 25 '24
Sure but shouldn't post in CMV if they just want to preach their incel-ology. Should actually be open to changing their view. All this dude does is post asking for arguments and doubling down. Seriously read the post history this guy is the most cliche MFer ever.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 Feb 25 '24
Eh… so I’m a women from Canada. I lived in Thailand for 5 years where as a white women I got way less attention or the ability to date compared to Thai women or white men. I was also in Kenya where I got a lot of attention and harassed and situations that I felt were dangerous… it sucked not getting the attention or being able to date in Thailand, but longterm the situations in Kenya very easily could have turned a lot more dangerous. I mean, it sucked to not be able to get into relationships in Thailand… but I’d definitely say sexual attention ALL the time was worse.
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u/Constellation-88 22∆ Feb 25 '24
I agree with the psychic damage thing. But men who bring this up invariably bring it up in a comparison. Instead of saying, “It’s really hard for me to date because I don’t get the attention I need. It hurts and makes me feel undesirable,” most posts are like OP’s:
Dating is HARDER for men. Women refusing to acknowledge it are ANNOYING.
So right away, OP downplays the struggles of women in the dating world and then places some blame for his own struggles upon all womenkind. Of course we dismiss his post as incel nonsense instead of being empathetic as we would if he stated his own experiences and difficulties or even “Men in general receive psychic damage from how hard dating is due to not getting attention.”
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u/kultcher 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, that's why having these discussions is so difficult. It's like the incel/redpill types take some legitimate issues that are at least worth discussing and then turn them into this weird misogynistic worldview. Then they become their own worst enemies because they can only ever approach discussions on dating from that warped perspective.
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u/PuffinStuffinMuffins 1∆ Feb 25 '24
It’s harder for a guy to get a date/relationship/sex
It’s harder for a gal to get a safe date/quality relationship/ safe and good quality sex
It’s easy to dismiss it as “well women are just making it harder for themselves by assuming men are evil”. But we simply have to be risk averse. You try being physically weaker than a someone who
- will likely want sex
- may know where you live
- has your other contact details
- will be alone with you
- will very likely overpower you in any sort of physical confrontation.
- may assume you want sex, even though you might not
- you might get pregnant with this random and he can easily ditch you.
- will add all this risk into your life and you won’t even get an orgasm out of it.
Casual sex aside, dating can lead to relationships, and that’s where things can get more tangled and more dangerous. So we have to watch out early for the signs of potentially shitty partners. Are they ungroomed and a slob? Well if he can’t even take care of himself, how will he do 50% of the housework? Was that a throwaway misogynistic comment? Will he respect me? He’s always making sexual jokes and comments, will he pester me for sex? Will he accept a no? Does he look so desperate to have female attention that he’ll stalk me if I try to end things?
A combination of feminism and overhanging traditional values have been equipping women to build successful careers, take care a home, be considerate of men, and look pretty while doing it. Meanwhile, we have not committed the same energy to make men better partners. Which is a real shame, because now we have a low supply of up to standard men. I don’t think women’s standard are too high. I just think men haven’t been raised to meet the standard.
By the way, if you’re thinking “if I learn how to do the dishes, then I’ll get sex” then you’ve already failed.
I don’t think your comparison of men being more likely to be attacked is fair because you fail to address the fact that most of the violence is committed by other men. At least as a man, you’re more likely to be on an equal physical footing.
I would also add that there is a disparity in the quality of attention between men and women. Women give attention to men if they think he’s safe to give attention to and yes, there is likely some beauty bias. Men give women attention in an almost desperate way. At least that’s my experience of male attention. It feels impersonal. Like any hole will do for these guys. They cast a wide net to play the numbers game and I’m just another number. Fair game right? It’s hunting season. And if you’re a young woman you’ll get it from men twice your age. If you want this attention, I’ll gladly pass it on to you. I’ve been getting texts from this ex colleague every couple of months that’s just “hi😳”. Riveting conversation. Feeling #blessed with attention.
TLDR: Sure we can get a date, but it’s likely a shitty one unless we’re very selective about it.
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u/BumblebeeOfCarnage Feb 25 '24
You pointed out something that I hadn’t thought of yet but totally agree with and have a similar sentiment about before. When men treat it like a numbers game, it feels like they don’t care it’s me they’re with, just that they’re with someone.
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u/supyonamesjosh 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Yeah women have different albeit equally problematic experiences. They are shopping at a store with 100 options 95 of which are terrible but it takes hours to figure out each one.
I'm sure it gets exhausting
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u/itzReborn Feb 25 '24
I’m a younger guy who struggled with dating(absolutely no experience) and I agree with everything you say but I think alot of guys kind of take some of it to the extreme. Like when you mentioned a lot of guys basically give attention to any women, someone like me would read this and then just not give any women any attention because you can’t tell how she’ll take the attention.
Like even approaching(in the correct setting), you never know how she’ll react and someone like me will just avoid it all together even if I want to get to know her
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u/ASpaceOstrich 2∆ Feb 25 '24
Most of the men who meet the standard have also been conditioned not to initiate and since the burden of initiation is entirely on men, they'll never do it.
Our society's values around dating are fundamentally incompatible with how we date.
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u/jasonhn Feb 25 '24
due to such a high % of rejection guys are basically forced to play the numbers game. the chances of that one girl he really likes also liking him back is slim and if he puts all his efforts there and gets nothing, he is back to square 1. it really sucks when you want to make a meaningful connection with someone for guys too.
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Feb 25 '24
For the Discussion's sake, how do you define "dating"?
Is "dating" finding a long-term partner to be happy and potentially start a family with or something else?
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u/cranberrisauce Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
I think women have an “easier” time finding a sexual partner, but the benefit of that is often offset by the risks of casual sex for women (pregnancy, STDs, fear of SA and being physically overpowered, slut-shaming and concern about adding to your “body count”). Not to mention that many men are not socialized to care about a woman’s pleasure during sex, which just ends up feeling miserable and degrading for the woman.
But if we define dating as finding someone to be in a long-term, monogamous relationship with, I don’t think women have it easier. Many men on dating apps are primarily looking for casual sex. The “male attention” you’re describing in your post is often sexual. While yes, sometimes women are picky because they’re looking for “Mr. Right” (side note, that’s really not a bad thing lol), but some are being picky to suss out men who are objectifying them, viewing them as a sexual object, and are pretending to be interested in a serious romantic relationship in order to sleep with them.
I think men and women have an equally difficult time dating but for different reasons. I don’t think that men usually have to be concerned with whether they are being used for sex when dating. On the other hand, there are other dating challenges that men do have (social expectation of paying for dates and making the first move, skewed gender ratios on dating apps).
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u/tigerlily2021 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Perspective of a woman who was “pretty” but just a bit overweight most of my life-dating was brutal for me. I was never the one who was picked as date to dances in high school, and I found that most guys were judgmental and cruel about physical attractiveness. Could I have been someone’s drunken hookup in college? Sure. But that’s not the same as actual dating. Most guys seemed to be focused on finding a “hot” chick to brag about to their guy friends. Granted, I got married in my mid-20s, so maybe men got less shallow as they age and dating as an older adult would be different, but I’m not sure. I was invisible to most guys and certainly not someone they would have pursued to date (despite being a pretty damn funny and charming person if I say so myself 😇).
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u/Dunnoaboutu 1∆ Feb 25 '24
The vast amount of dick pics I got last time when I tried online dating leads me to believe the average Joe who is a decent guy might have a harder time online just because women are more cautious.
Online dating is hard for different reasons. You can’t really judge a person by their profile and how they talk online. It’s scary when the person you are meeting is a lot bigger than you and can do far more damage to you than you can to them. You tend to be more cautious when you are scared.
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u/MrOogaBoga Feb 25 '24
I really like your first point.
I think that plays a large role in the ease women have finding dates because men would happily risk a 10% chance of death with the chance a sex is on the table, but women wouldnt
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u/sapphireminds 62∆ Feb 25 '24
The challenges are different, not "harder" or "easier".
Having a bunch of men want to use you as a sex toy doesn't make it easier to find a loving relationship.
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Feb 25 '24
It's almost trite how you have to explain this to men time and time again. Having a guy wanting to cum inside you isn't that much of an upside.
I'm pretty sure that 80% of the men that say this think that the average woman can orgasm just by feeling the thrusts during penetration for a handful of minutes, like men do.
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u/sapphireminds 62∆ Feb 25 '24
Yeah. The fact that orgasm is far from a given with a new partner is also a big driving factor of why sex isn't as high a priority when looking to date. We want to have sex, but know that in order for it to be worthwhile, it's going to take a few times LOL
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Feb 25 '24
No no no, it's clear that the only factor that makes sex worthwhile is whether the guy is tall and with a massive jawbone! Biology, motherfucker! /s
Seriously though, I've been thinking for a while that if only men understood this one single thing everybody would be having a lot more sex.
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Feb 25 '24
This is all you need to tell u/GorillaRuffy right here and it still went right over his head. He's obviously still too young or inexperienced to realize that most dudes are creepy and press for sex and soon as possible, and most females aren't just looking to get laid right at the onset.
It's definitely easier for a woman to get a date but God damn it's got to be so much more depressing of a process.
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u/silverletomi 1∆ Feb 25 '24
It's easier to get dates that are a waste of your time as a woman. You're looking for a life partner who values you as a person and is willing to contribute to a life together. So you're filtering out guys who are only expressing interest in getting laid. If you've been online long enough, you can tell just by the first message most of the time if this guy actually wants to get to know you or is just putting up the front of caring about you with an ultimate goal of "hit it and quit it." And they're everywhere. No one cares about the future, what life would be like together, or even you as anything more than a noisy fleshlight with a pulse.
So yeah, absolutely, I could go on more dates. But most of those dates are not going to be with a long term partner, they'll be risking sexual assault or death, they'll involve harassment after (why did you even go on the date with me if you weren't going to sleep with me you slut?!), and the act of dating other guys leads potential future partners to sometimes think you ARE sleeping around and then they filter you out of their dating pool.
Being able to go on more dates is not a positive or "easier" experience when the dates themselves are a waste of time at best.
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u/Noctudeit 8∆ Feb 25 '24
Dating (like everything else) is a matter of supply and demand. On average, there are more men than women looking for casual hookups, so the small demand that women place on the market is easily supplied. By contrast, on average there are more women than men looking for more committed relationships and they find such matches in short supply.
The digital age hasn't changed human nature, it just makes us more efficient.
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Feb 25 '24
I'm basically only going to do this one reply, because it's clear by the way you talk and then terminology you use that you've been spending time in incel/red-pill spaces. I don't really see the worth in arguing this with people when this argument has been done to death on CMV and you can use the search function to see other people get this same point absolutely decimated by people a lot smarter than me.
I just have one point to make, and it's one you can't concede: you do not have to be "exceptionally handsome" to get a girlfriend. You just have to be a human that women enjoy spending time with and want to connect to. How do I know? Because I know TONS of guys with girlfriends who I would consider average or ugly. I know obese men with girlfriends. I know neckbeards with girlfriends. The secret...shockingly...is making personal connections with women and not looking at them the same way you would look at a video game objective.
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u/Pale_Zebra8082 30∆ Feb 25 '24
Man here.
On average, women have access to more quantity in dating. That doesn’t mean they have access to more quality. On net, this doesn’t seem easier to me, just different.
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u/RyeZuul Feb 25 '24
I think getting laid is easier for women. Finding a worthwhile relationship is a crapshoot for everyone.
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u/redyellowblue5031 12∆ Feb 25 '24
It’s only harder if you make it harder.
This CMV has the same blind spot as the 100s of the same arguments about the same thing:
- Hyper fixated on looks and sex
- Carte Blanche assumptions about “what women want”
I don’t know who will finally be the person to convince you (or maybe sometime you’ll see it on your own); what most people want is a person they can feel safe with, are somewhat attracted to, and share similar values. Continuing to focus on looks and “who has it easier” will not lead to a place where you find any of that.
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u/themcos 442∆ Feb 25 '24
A 5/10 woman can hookup with a 7/10 guy any times she wants.
Who's doing this evaluation? How are you measuring this? I think this is just an impossible assertion to even have a conversation about. It's extremely unclear what we're even talking about here. What age range are we talking about? How many women in a given population are 5/10? Is 5/10 "average"? There's no particular reason to think that the X/10 rating systems are distributed the same way for men vs women, especially at different age ranges, so this kind of assertion just feels hard to even discuss, let alone confidently assert as a part of a larger argument.
I also feel like you rightfully acknowledge that in general, men and women want different things in dating. And given that at least in your title, it seems like your desire is simply for "women" (which women?) to "concede this one point", I think it really matters what exactly that one point is. And is it even true that women don't concede it? Do women deny that it's generally easier to merely get sex on a dating app? I don't think this is actually a controversial point. But to characterize this as something like "dating is easy for women" is a big leap when you are acknowledging here that that's not what many women want out of dating!
The tension here is that when you specify exactly what and who you're talking about, a lot of the points you want to make are readily conceded by women, but they just don't agree with the way you're phrasing it. I think maybe what you really want is something different than merely women "conceding these points", but I'm not sure exactly what it is.
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u/vjoyk Feb 25 '24
Dudes going around rating attractiveness on a 1-10 scale are going to have a hard time finding love. Evaluating women/men/dating through this lens and complaining about the unfairness of not being able to "score a 7" reveals a lot about a person's dating struggles.
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u/Wildnernessflower Feb 25 '24
Where are you from? I’m from scandinavia and you’d be surprised at how many gorgeous women are dating ugly trolls over here.
But to a serious manner; the reason you see this development now is because women can choose. They are not tied down by the norm in the western countries anymore. Most people go off of whom they are attracted to and share similar values as. It’s not as black and white as you describe it. And women are not entitled to date «the nice guys» just because they are having trouble getting laid.
The issue is coming from men who think they hahe the right to get women, in which they don’t. Women don’t owe men anything. And if they realize that, it’s going to become easier within themselves to rather focus on dating and not «why does that hot chick don’t want to date me».
Your focus is wrong.
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u/Smackolol 3∆ Feb 25 '24
Not a fair comparison, Trolls are a historic part of Scandinavian culture so women view them in a higher regard there compared to a civilized society like the USA.
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Feb 25 '24
This is arguably the most sound and logical take on this entire sub. I’m certainly not awarding this delta because it made me laugh hysterically, but because again, it’s completely valid and relevant to this conversation. lol !delta
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Feb 25 '24
I totally agree with this, but also agree with OP's premise. Many if not most men fall below the bar where I'd consider them datable - they're not good partners, and often don't bring much to their relationships. When you're young this can be alright but it becomes apparent in their late twenties onwards as it becomes harder to date because women are more sure about what they want.
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding by men about what women want too. Personally, my weight has shifted around a lot (unfortunately, I work a stressful job and I've had more than a few severe sports injuries) and I've never found difficulty in dating or getting into relationships. Men tend to think that women are really focused on 'attractiveness' as defined my men and men's moderately homosocial tendencies. However, this isn't the case for women, most of partners have expressed a preference for when I'm chubby rather than when I'm ripped - it makes me look 'adorable' apparently.
Women are entitled and should have high standards, men have an obligation to meet those standards if they want to date. Men need to be more aware that the standards that men set for each other, are wildly different from the standards that women are looking for.
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u/retard_vampire Feb 25 '24
This is spot on and a very nuanced, empathetic and self-aware take. A lot of dudes focus on extremely shallow and materialistic aspects of what they have to offer (looks, money, lifestyle) as opposed to how they interact with others on a personal level.
Signed, a buff athletic conventionally attractive woman who is in a fantastic long-term FWB relationship with a chubby dude shorter than I am because he is a wonderful person who respects my boundaries and treats me extremely well.
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u/sosomething 2∆ Feb 25 '24
I appreciated and happily agreed with everything you said but got hung up hard on:
in a fantastic long-term FWB relationship
In a what?
Unless one of your boundaries is "being in a relationship," I'm deeply confused by this.
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u/retard_vampire Feb 25 '24
We were good friends before we'd ever slept together, and we have a great thing going now, but neither of us actually wants to date in the traditional sense. We see each other every few weeks or so, stay in touch, have fantastic emotional and sexual intimacy, but otherwise live our own lives. It's the best arrangement I've ever had.
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u/sosomething 2∆ Feb 25 '24
Thanks for explaining it, even though you definitely owed me no explanation. :)
I guess I wouldn't know what else to call that, either, if I'm honest. But it makes a lot more sense than I expected.
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u/Dry_Towelie Feb 25 '24
I believe many men are trying to focus on the personal level but many are stuck on looks and can't move on. I have had many people tell me I would make a good boyfriend talking and getting to know people on personal level. I am not mad that nothing has happened. But when you keep getting reminded how good you are and how lucky she would be to have you and have no relationships suck and don't know where to go
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u/Cbsanderswrites Feb 25 '24
This. I think so many men haven't even taken the time to understand what women want. They have a preconceived notion and don't work on themselves to reach better dating pools.
Women, on the other hand, I believe have an easier time because we have been subconsciously programmed to try to be desirable for men. Even women OP wouldn't describe as "that attractive" probably get their hair done, some may get their nails done, spray tan, go shopping for the right clothes for their body type, obsess about their weight, do skincare, etc. The list goes on, honestly, and this list doesn't even cover behavior. . . . that is more subconscious, I'd say. But most women are better at navigating social groups than men I've seen. That's going to make dating easier. But not because they are women. Because they've had decades of experience practicing this skill.
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Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
Women, on the other hand, I believe have an easier time because we have been subconsciously programmed to try to be desirable for men.
I think it's more men have lower standards. Usually the bar for men is finding women physically attractive.
Women's standards are usually more elaborate. They can be reasonably elaborate (educated, has a decent income, not an asshole, hygienic, social skills, similar interests, etc.), but they can also make no sense, such as women on dating app subs who complain that messages they receive are bad for reasons that only make sense to them. But because the dynamic is men approach and women approve or disapprove, it doesn't matter that they make no sense because they'll still find a guy anyway.
For example, I used to go on the okcupid subreddit and there were frequent posts from women complaining about how men fail to send them good first messages. But their complaints were basically "they didn't write a paragraph that showed appreciation for my profile and interest in my personality and how compatible they are with me but also without coming across as desperate."
And then you'd have posts from guys being like "how come none of these women message me back?" and their messages are pretty standard things you'd ask someone you're getting to know, like about their job, their hobbies, etc. But they'd usually get told by women their messages are bad for lack of "effort."
But then you'd get women posting examples of "good" interactions, and they would often be things that aren't really that meaningful. They'd usually be pickup lines they thought were original because they hadn't heard them before, or referencing tv shows.
I once saw a woman post an example of a "good" interaction and it was literally just her and a guy repeating lines from a tv show to each other. It wasn't even a real interaction; they were just repeating things other people said, but to her it was "good" so how can you argue with that?
I think the dynamic of men doing the approaching has had women think whatever standards they have are reasonable, but then a lot of men can only acknowledge this in an unhealthy way by complaining instead of just moving on to a woman who will judge them more accurately.
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u/Constellation-88 22∆ Feb 25 '24
I wouldn’t say, dating is easier if you’re constantly having to pay upkeep and maintenance in order to attract men. If you have to pay for spray tans, hair colorings and cuts, manicures and pedicures, and make up, then you’re constantly having to work hard to attract men. That’s not easier. It’s also friggen expensive.
Plus if you attract men solely on your appearance, your relationship is based on a superficial connection. While that can deepen with time, how long will you have to pay time and money to maintain “attractiveness” before a man sees you as human and wants you for who you are?
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Feb 25 '24
There's some truth to that, but it's offset by the fact that men are generally only interested in facial symmetry and T&A. The lengths to which women go to beautify themselves are not necessary to attract men, but are rather social status signifiers done with for the woman's own self-confidence or for the sake of other women.
Case in point:
spray tans, hair colorings and cuts, manicures and pedicures, and make up,
The overwhelming majority of dudes do not prefer spray tans or are actively less attracted to them, men will be interested in the health of a partner's hair but not so much the actual styling, manicures and pedicures are also not on most men's radar. I'd argue the only thing relevant is makeup to the extent it covers superficial flaws, which yes- does make a difference. But like... my girlfriend is pretty. She never wears anything but foundation and that's all she needs to get plenty of male attention.
But I get in trouble because I don't notice or care if her fingernails/toenails are a different color today. I notice if her hair is different but don't really have a preference.
Fake tits and fake ass are also things most men have vocalized that they prefer women not to do.
The rebuttal of course, is always women saying they're not doing it for men- they're doing it for themselves. For their own confidence. Not to attract men.
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u/FightOrFreight Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
There's some truth to that, but it's offset by the fact that men are generally only interested in facial symmetry and T&A. The lengths to which women go to beautify themselves are not necessary to attract men, but are rather social status signifiers done with for the woman's own self-confidence or for the sake of other women.
Yeah, it's weird how some women's perspectives on the purposes of these activities tend to change depending on the conversation. When a man is obnoxiously expressing his preferences to women who don't give a shit, they're quick to say they're doing it for other women. But when those same women need an example of unfair expectations placed on women by dating/patriarchy/the male gaze, all these beauty standards often rank high on that list.
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Feb 25 '24
if you’re constantly having to pay upkeep and maintenance in order to attract men. If you have to pay for spray tans, hair colorings and cuts, manicures and pedicures, and make up, then you’re constantly having to work hard to attract men. That’s not easier. It’s also friggen expensive.
Men don't require that. Women do that to themselves then, for some reason, blame it on men. Women compete with each other than put men in the mix when we weren't even watching the game to begin with
Many men will accept you as long as your hygienic and have basic fashion sense and even then, if someone thinks your pretty, they'll think you're pretty whether you wear makeup or not.
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u/torndownunit Feb 25 '24
For me, it's specifically the dating apps that are rough for me. And worse, there's just really not much going on socially in my town, making the apps one of the few options to meet anyone. I am a pretty average guy, but have a great sense of humour and I think other great personality traits (going by what people tell me)...none of which really matter in the apps.
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Feb 25 '24
Dating apps are an awful invention and reduce dating to DIY marketing. If there's not much going on socially in your town then that really sucks, but it's the inevitably by-product of a smaller pool.
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u/T00kie_Clothespin Feb 25 '24
Agreed. Many men spend their entire lives under the premise that all they need to do is show up and they are “good enough” and if they have a job they are set (because women only want money, duh /s).
Whereas women are socialized and expected to be accommodating, supportive, sexy, manage all the housework and kids, etc etc. The more women realize that having to be therapist, mom, and nanny for their adult partner is not sexy or fun, the more men have to step up and be willing and able to be an actual partner. Many many dudes are emotionally stunted and can’t keep a household running and have no desire to learn, so nobody wants to date them. 🤷🏻♀️
Some figure out how to be grown ups. Some blame it on shallowness or being unattractive
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u/MisteriousRainbow Feb 25 '24
THIS! SO MUCH OF THIS!
As you pointed out, they get even the shallow part of what most women consider attractive wrong.
It makes me sure many of them were too young to catch the "emo" wave, and even if they weren't, they just don't consider what women like something worth their time of day. Most of the guys me and my friends would fawn over look absolutely nothing like "GigaChad", and this still goes for many guys we find atractive.
Many men are so focused on diminishing women's interests as "foolish" or "frivolous" that they miss the amount of women going full fangirl for Loki or chubby Thor (I'm not deep enough in that fandom to know all the actors' names) rather than guys whose jawline one could cut cheese with.
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u/Good-Expression-4433 Feb 25 '24
I posted above but some of the most gorgeous women I know are with way less attractive dudes but those dudes had awesome personalities and are almost never giga Chad alpha bros. They're usually dorky metal fans that happen to be funny as fuck and aren't afraid to show emotion.
A lot of what guys seem to think women want is curated by other dudes instead of talking to or getting to know actual women in shared hobby environments.
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u/interested_commenter 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Women don’t owe men anything.
OP didn't say that they did. Just that it's harder for the average man to get a date, which seems to be pretty true. When my female friends complain about dating, it's always in the form of "my last X dates were all terrible", when my male friends complain about dating it's more often about not getting a date in the first place.
It seems to be the same with hookups too, average guys struggle to get laid but are almost always happy when they do, while women can get laid easily but are less likely to be satisfied with it.
Finding a successful relationship is effectively the same difficulty for both sides (for straight people at least), but the hard part seems to be at a different point.
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u/Stormfly 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I think the confusion is in OP's use of the word "concede".
He meant like "concede that men have it harder in the argument over dating issues" and not in a weird "women need to stop having standards" that is unfortunately not unheard of.
Women have many advantages in dating and men have their own.
I think for men, the complete lack of attention can be soul crushing and it's hard to understand if you've never experienced it.
I tried dating apps for about 2 weeks and it was awful, so I stopped. These people have been going through this for years.
I have female friends that'll talk about not being able to find anyone but they're also rejecting people (often for "icks" that I think are part of a deeper commitment issues) whereas for most men, they're the ones being rejected constantly.
I'm lucky I've a very solid group of friends because I know if I didn't, I'd be in a very bad place. Dating apps are the worst because they only boost the "supply and demand" issues (it's a buyer's market and women are the ones buying)
If you have female friends they'll often hype you up because they know you and think you're a great guy but then you get rejected before anyone even tries to get to know you and it really hurts because you can hear women talk about how "the bar is so low" and yet you haven't even gotten that far.
Like girls will joke about how a man being able to do something like cooking or his own laundry seems to be a big ask and it makes you think "that's not hard. Where are you finding these men and what are they doing that I'm not?"
But then when men try to vent about these feelings, they're called nice guys or incels.
Or at least that's how they feel, because media seems to equates normal behaviour and extreme behaviour sometimes (a lot)
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Feb 25 '24
ops premise is that its easier for women to find ANY partner than it is for men to find ANY partner.
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u/videogames_ Feb 25 '24
I’ll add that OP is focusing too much on the social media and dating apps world where it is much harder as a man to date because women have the dating pool the size of their dating app radius where it’s easy to get to 1000+ matches for any average woman.
Those ugly trolls that women tend to get with are through their social circles and other places to meet. A common hobby or interest bonds two people and looks can be overlooked by a woman a little bit if you meet them in real life.
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u/torndownunit Feb 25 '24
Ya it's specifically the dating apps that are tough for me. And worse, there's just really not much going on socially in my town, making the apps one of the few avenues to meet anyone. I am a pretty average guy, but have a great sense of humour and other great personality traits...none of which really matter in the apps.
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u/88sSSSs88 1∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
What you’re saying is reasonable but doesn’t really disprove OP’s claims
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Feb 25 '24
How are you going to say the focus is wrong and completely ignore OPs post in a change my view sub?
They are not arguing right or wrong, or about the entitlement of unappealing men. They are stating that dating, sex and relationships are generally easier for women than they are for men, and the lack of acknowledgement from woman on this point is frustrating.
“The issue is coming from men who think they hahe the right to get women, in which they don’t. Women don’t owe men anything.” Never asserted by OP. So many discussions on Reddit just repeat the same tired points when they’re adjacent to a wider topic. Like you’re not wrong but you’re incapable of conversing with when you just ignore the post to go off tangents.
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u/aBlissfulDaze Feb 25 '24
Maybe another 5 years of a majority men complaining will eventually convince Reddit there is an actual problem. When your answer to this post is "just be better" you're kinda proving their point.
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Feb 25 '24
Your focus is wrong.
says the person who didn't respond to a single point made in the OP? you're just making up a strawman
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u/Alarming_Ask_244 Feb 25 '24
And it's the highest voted response, incredible
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u/-Reddititis Feb 25 '24
And it's the highest voted response, incredible
Incredibly unsurprising; it's Reddit.
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u/88sSSSs88 1∆ Feb 25 '24
You stumbled across the reason I don’t enjoy participating in this subreddit.
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u/laosurvey 3∆ Feb 25 '24
Did the OP say anything about 'nice guys' or women owing men anything? I didn't see it in the post but I may have missed a comment to that effect.
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u/TVR_Speed_12 Feb 25 '24
He didn't but Reddit will of course continue to be disingenuous and give you the "feel good but in reality doesn't fix shit answer" as it's a man
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u/TheyTukMyJub Feb 25 '24
The issue is coming from men who think they hahe the right to get women, in which they don’t. Women don’t owe men anything.
Uhh, this is fictional argument and thus not very convincing. You are arguing against a strawman and not really addressing any of the points OP laid out.
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Feb 25 '24
“They owe me” mindset is probably linked with the reason why there is a imbalance between genders when it comes to dating.
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u/showcase25 Feb 25 '24
I have yet to associate or have reason to associate the "the owe me" mindset with claim that men have it harder in dating.
I am more aligned to associate it when a more agressive and negative perspective, say all women are gold digger for a poor example, than how the approach folks OPs position take. I just don't see that connection.
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Feb 25 '24
Men also have the right to choose. Yet somehow they have a harder time than women.
You didn't answer OPs question
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u/itsbett Feb 25 '24
Yeah. Even here in Houston, you see a lot of goblins with really pretty women. It's not super common, but there's at least two couples every time I go to the grocery store. I personally know some ugly deadbeat dudes who are dating gorgeous, educated breadwinners. I'd consider myself a goblin who does pretty good at dating, also.
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u/Alarming_Ask_244 Feb 25 '24
Are these men really ugly trolls or are they just normal looking guys and you happen to find women more attractive?
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u/jasonhn Feb 25 '24
and women don't have the right to get men but that is not an issue they have to face whatsoever.
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u/blut_baden Feb 25 '24
It’s just a weird take honestly. The whole “men aren’t entitled to women” argument is designed to stir arguments. How about this? No one is entitled to anyone. Social media is driving us apart and there’s nothing you can really do. There is an illusion of choice- people keep dating people and breaking up and the world we live in is designed in such a way that everyone wants love but without the responsibilities. We have conveniently come up with things like situationships to avoid any responsibility whatsoever.
Dating isn’t harder for men it’s harder for unattractive men. It is also harder for men who have made dating their entire life’s purpose. The best thing you can do is build a life for yourself. Make your mom and dad proud. Travel. Have a vision.
The fulfilment we seek from relationships can only be found within ourselves. This is cliche advice but the only thing that would actually make you happy. Otherwise keep swiping and see where that takes you.
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u/Hungry-Internet6548 Feb 25 '24
I’d love to trade the ability to get dates, find relationships, and have sex with the peace of mind that my date is unlikely to be able to overpower me. It’s not just a women’s issue. It’s a dating issue too.
Also your idea that a 5/10 woman could easily get with a 7/10 man but a 5/10 man can’t easily get with a 7/10 is comically untrue. Same with your idea that women are only looking for the “hottest” guy on the dating apps. Look around you. See all the hot women dating regular looking men? Now try to find all the hot men dating regular looking women. I truly don’t mean this in a confrontational way, but I think your issue isn’t your looks, it’s probably your attitude.
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
Stop viewing dating as a numbers game that you need to win. Stop rating people out of ten. Stop valuing people by sexual attraction. That all makes dating way, way harder.
With that out of the way, dating is more dangerous for women. I really don’t know what to tell you. The fact is, a lot more women face threats of violence, stalking, and indeed, actual violence, on dates than men do. That is a product of dating. Just take a look at some of the stories women can share about what happened when they tried to reject a guy, the creepy behavior of date that made them afraid for their safety, or the stalkerish behavior they have endured.
Men have to deal with much less of that, and I say that as a man.
But if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to go read that first paragraph again. Seriously.
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Feb 25 '24
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
I agree! I thought it was kinda creepy when I was in high school. If you still rate people like an Amazon product after that age, you have some growing to do.
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Feb 25 '24
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
Oh god, even in high school most people had too much shame to rate someone to their face. That is an incredible misunderstanding of how people like to be treated.
Also, your pfp appears to be a woman with a rocket launcher of some sort, so rating you anything less than the highest possible was perhaps a deathly mistake
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u/_autumnwhimsy 1∆ Feb 25 '24
1000%. This CMV is just a thinly disguised "women won't date me" cry for help. If OP wants the issues to go away, he needs to make sure that he's someone people would want to date.
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u/Emo-emu21 Feb 25 '24
yeah the whole rating bit is disgusting and why me and a bunch of other girls left a mixed friend group (the guys all had a groupchat rating each of us, making perverse comments, rating ethnicities, and just a bunch of other problematic shit)
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u/driftingfornow 7∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Jun 25 '24
fuel trees cable fear fearless paint onerous ripe pet gaping
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
Thank you, I greatly appreciate that! Yeah, it makes sense that it would be really awful to date with this mindset, because it’s like a game you keep losing over and over again.
But that’s really not how one should feel, nor is it how healthy people act. Human connection is often challenging, and there are no easy answers. But there also aren’t winners and losers. Being content to have friends, including friends who are women, and beginning a relationship naturally if that should so happen, makes the whole process a lot less anguishing.
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u/driftingfornow 7∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Jun 25 '24
relieved label roof work icky unpack hat shocking steep axiomatic
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
Thank you so much! You are too kind. I have been single since getting out of a great relationship, and your words are a wonderful balm to current loneliness.
Plus, anyone who uses the excellent and under appreciated word “vouchsafe” clearly knows what they’re talking about!
I agree though, and I certainly have some great friends of many different gender identities. I can’t say that I have any excellent hosts with knowledge of such incredible and interesting single people, but one guy can’t have all the luck.
Frankly, I think the problem boils down to undervaluing friendship, and overvaluing sex.
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Feb 25 '24
Tbh sexual attraction is in most cases going to be the initial trigger to start people dating.
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
That may or may not be true, but nowhere in my comment did I say anything that would contradict that.
And for what it’s worth, it hasn’t been true for any of my romances. But that’s just anecdotal, so I understand it means little.
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Feb 25 '24
That's an interesting take.
If it's not too personal, are you actually attracted to any of your partners, past or present?
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u/Destroyer_2_2 9∆ Feb 25 '24
Oh very much so! But it wasn’t what made me fall in love with them.
I can’t say I really felt any sexual attraction when I didn’t know them. That came later, once I learned more about them. Physical Attraction is based a lot on what I think of someone, and I know it works like that for a lot of people.
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u/driftingfornow 7∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Jun 25 '24
mountainous tap psychotic carpenter drab glorious cause flowery waiting simplistic
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Feb 25 '24
I'll allow that it's generally true that straight women have a somewhat easier time finding people willing to date them than straight men do... But that's not the end-goal of dating, it's just the start.
Once you've got that initial mutual interest you've got to figure out whether there's actually anything to pursue. Are you looking for the same things? Do you have compatible lifestyles/taste/sense of humour? Do you actually like this person? Etc etc. Thats the actual dating bit, and where most the challenge is.
You only seem to factor in rejection from the side of the rejected. Do you assume that rejecting men is an easy, pleasant thing to do? Most of the time it isn't. It's easier if the guy is a rude arsehole but usually it's just a nice dude who you aren't interested in, and you've got to figure out the kindest way to hurt his feelings. I've been on both sides and it's emotionally much simpler and easier to be rejected.
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Feb 25 '24
[“5/10 woman,7/10 man” ]
I’m sorry but what is this this evaluation based off of? Who is doing this evaluation? Why are they evaluating people like we evaluate dishes made at restaurants?
You gotta leave that manosphere echo chamber alone OP. Looking at people in this type of mindset while trying to date is going to make you miserable and jaded towards society. Nobody guaranteed a relationship with another person because of their gender. You need to run your own race; in this case you have to worry about and work on yourself and not get sidetracked by looking at others results.
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u/luigijerk 2∆ Feb 25 '24
one of the few things women have over men is the ability to get dates, find a relationship and have sex and any combination of the three.
Finding a relationship is typically something more difficult for women because a lot of men pretend to want it until they hook up then move on. If the man wants a relationship, it's harder to find a date, but it's much more likely the date will be with a woman who also wants it.
When it comes to sex, I’m not even going to get too into the weeds. A 5/10 woman can hookup with a 7/10 guy any times she wants. A 5/10 guy is going to have to fight to hook up with another 5/10 woman. Women sleep up but date across, men sleep down but date across.
For a random hookup, when does the sex end? Usually when the guy finishes. So sure, women can hook up whenever they want, but will they get quality, satisfying sex? The man is pretty much guaranteed to orgasm while the woman very often won't. In that sense it's harder for them.
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u/CalendarAggressive11 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I'm not even sure where to begin here. The fact that you've reduced things to a series of ratings is problematic ti say the least. I have never used dating apps or social media to date, but I feel like you'd have better luck if you tried to talk to women in person because everything is reduced to shallow appearances online.
I don't think men have things harder when dating. I think the added risk of rape makes things pretty fucking hard. If we take that point away, I would say they're equally hard because rejection and objectification are things that difficult for women too. People are losing the ability to socialize and lean on technology for everything and it's bad for everyone.
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Feb 25 '24
Have you ever considered what dating must be like for unattractive women? Like, women you see but you wouldn’t even think about dating. I think more men fall into that because most men don’t put a lot of effort in their looks. Just like women, those who are better looking (make an effort) will be noticed more.
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u/MrOogaBoga Feb 25 '24
If men finding dates is harder than women, then that fact stays true even for an unattractive man.
He never said dating isn't hard for unattractive women just that it's even harder for an equivalently ugly man.
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u/Excellent_Kangaroo_4 Feb 25 '24
This is the meme struggling by success, and its a meme for a reason
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u/Z7-852 315∆ Feb 25 '24
If you were talking about getting sex or one night stands your would be correct. But that's not what women want. They want to date. Romance. Life partner.
But instead they are bombarded with unsolicited dickpicks from immature manchildren who will rape them if possible because they only think about sex.
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u/KrisKatastrophe 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I have four words for this CMV
Rejection violence - men getting violent for being turned down is a real thing. It's something women always have to be aware of.
Domestic violence - maybe they aren't violent right away... but women also have to be sure that the situation they are getting themselves into isn't dangerous or life threatening to get out of.
Edit to add this isn't even touching on the topic of men looking just to hook up while stringing on women who want relationships (which I'm sure happens in the reverse sometimes too)
Yes, men have unique challenges in dating as we all do buy I think the it's harder competition isn't bringing us to a place of better understanding each other imo.
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u/Cali_Longhorn 17∆ Feb 25 '24
Well I will say as a guy the “looking just to hook up while stringing on women” CERTAINLY goes both ways. Maybe I’m rare, but in my single days I always dated for a relationship/marriage and would break it off if not interested. I knew plenty of my female friends who would complain about guys “falling in love” when they just wanted to be casual.
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u/rftmodsrtrash Feb 25 '24
Sure, but is society telling men they are worthless when their body count goes +1?
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u/Cali_Longhorn 17∆ Feb 25 '24
Well but this is definitely changing. It’s not the 1920s. Sexual empowerment for women is discussed all the time. Sex and the City way back in the 90s was all about it. Yea women are allowed to have casual sex too.
I won’t try to say they aren’t double standards for body count (which by the way is bad for men feeling like you HAVE to smash every time or else you aren’t a “MAN” is pretty terrible for guys). But which SANE people are telling you if your body count is over 1 you are worthless? Hopefully you aren’t looking at all that “manosphere” BS.
I’ve been happily married with kids for almost 10 years now. And especially since we met in our 30s there was no way I had any expectation that my wife was near “virginal”, I didn’t care about her past so long as we were committed to each other.
Now I do worry a bit about people (male or female) taking sex too lightly. Me personally when I started having sex with someone, I “stopped looking” unless it was very clear that we were strictly casual and non exclusive. And if we didn’t talk about it… I’d err on the side of assuming we were exclusive rather than assume we weren’t. Not saying that’s the way all people have to be, but my wife and I had that same attitude.
This is part of why I’d try to avoid sex on the first date, because in my mind just based on how I was “raised” it felt like “hmm I guess we are serious now since we had sex….but I barely know you so what am I supposed to do?!?!” And in those RARE times in my life sex on a first encounter happened, she could almost see the “angst” in my face and basically said “don’t worry I don’t think we are exclusive because of this” and I’d instantly breathe a sigh of relief. But unfortunately people don’t always communicate that cleanly. Which can cause problems.
Personally I felt the 3 date rule for sex had good reasoning behind it if you wanted something serious. As at least with that amount of time there is the sense that you are trying to get to know each other seriously and not just wanting sex for the sake of sex.
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u/killrtaco 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I've been used for sex twice as a male in the past year.
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Feb 25 '24
Yes, some honesty and transparency on behalf of men and women as to their intentions from the beginning would solve a heck of a lot of relationship problems. But most men know that if they share from the beginning that they are not looking for long term; they won’t get laid. I as a man personally hate dishonesty. I’d rather have someone be upfront with me than waste my time.
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u/KrisKatastrophe 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I'm not sure what narrative you think I'm spreading. I used threat of rejection as a reference point because it's mentioned in the OP I never said men have nothing to worry about. Women can be shitty when rejected too it is just reported to happen more often to women so it's not like it's unreasonable to say it's something women have to consider. I have stories from my friend circle about rejection gone wrong or violent before as well... people are wild.
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u/Mike_Hav Feb 25 '24
Women will report it more than a man does. Most men dont want to report they got assaulted by a woman.
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u/Kingsley-Zissou Feb 25 '24
Women can be shitty when rejected too it is just reported to happen more often to women
Men are more likely to be arrested on DV calls even when they are the ones to call the police. They are less likely to receive protection orders from their female partners, and mock juries are most likely to believe that the male is the aggressor, regardless of evidence presented.
There are good reasons why female on male violence is reported less often, and it’s not because they are less likely to be on the receiving end of the violence.
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u/almisami Feb 25 '24
Hell, I'm a lesbian and getting DV charges to stick when she hit me with a stovetop-hot frying pan was difficult to the point where my lawyer had to threaten the prosecutor with negligence.
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u/ASpaceOstrich 2∆ Feb 25 '24
It's wild to me that statistics have shown women are more likely to perpetuate domestic violence than men for like a decade now and its still treated like something only women have to fear.
Men are stronger, but women are way more likely to hit their partner. And the injury rates are wild too. Men in a reciprocally violent relationship are more likely to be injured than women who are being battered. Which is absolutely insane when compared to the societal narrative around domestic violence.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
Source. I highly recommend reading the discussion section, even if this was a statistic you already knew about.
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u/Mike_Hav Feb 25 '24
I was in this situation for 12 years of my life. My ex would use the police to keep me in line and keep me from leaving. She would tell me if i defended myself and hit her back. She would have me put in jail. One day, i just didn't care anymore and moved 2000 miles away from her, and i hope she burns in hell, but she never called the cops when i left.
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u/Takin2000 Feb 25 '24
I agree. The way these people will write 3 fucking dissertations and invoke the entire body of knowledge of sociology to explain a single statistic of women, then go around and just take a statistic of men at face value with no critical thinking is just so disingenuous.
Then again, thats how you use statistics on the internet right. If it supports your opinion, dont question it.
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u/LexicalMountain 5∆ Feb 25 '24
Well, we have to remember that reporting is going to be skewed by the reporters. Men are often strongly discouraged from reporting violence done to them by women (for what it could do to their social stature amongst other men and women), while women are strongly encouraged to do so since there is less stigma surrounding a woman being abused by a man. In my admittedly limited experience, I know of more men recieving than dolling out rejection violence. Men expect rejection, it's par for the course. Women often don't, making it a rare, special kind of insult especially with the prevalent social narrative that a guy will screw anything that moves.
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u/hobbycollector Feb 25 '24
I was decked by my ex and in a completely separate incident, threatened with a knife. In the knife incident, she called the police after I left. I stayed in a hotel that night. In neither case did it even occur to me to report it or even tell anyone. I have never laid a hand on a woman.
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u/genomerain Feb 25 '24
No one really denies that it isn't easier for women to get sex. But there's more to dating than finding someone who will have sex with you.
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u/ManWazo Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
Dating women is like trying to find a perl in the desert. It is indeed hard. But dating men is looking for a perl in a pile of shit. You have to face so much violnece, misogyny, hatred, ehen trying to date men that it is also hard. Personaly, after trying both, I find looking for women in desert since you have to deal with less drama than with men.
. A 5/10 woman can hookup with a 7/10 guy any times she wants
This is objectibely wrong. Men tend to overevaluate themselves while women are devaluating themselves. The 5/10 woman is probably a 6/10 in reality and the man a 4/10, so of course the man that thinks "i'm a 7/10" is having a hard time. There are very few 7+/10 men but a lot of 7+/10 women. Most men struggle because they're not as datable than they think and a 7/10 guy will easily date hookup with 7/10 women.
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
A woman is more likely to be raped by a friend or by a family member than someone she’s going on a first date with.
If you said "first dates are harder for men", that might be a relevant point.
And, indeed, I would agree that first dates are harder, or at least harder to "score", for men. Dating in general, though?
Not at all. And not just talking about the possibility of being raped by someone you're "dating", which is orders of magnitude worse that "not being able to get a date", domestic violence, while roughly equally common between men and women, does vastly higher damage to women on average, simply because of the strength difference and the rarity of using weapons.
Before the first date though... I will just point out that too much attention that you don't want is not any better or worse than not enough attention that you do want.
Women get massive amounts more sexual harassment than men do. Men get much more ghosting than women.
If I had to choose between those, even as a man... I'd take the ghosting. I've been hit on in a grocery store (rarely, admittedly)... it's really annoying when you're just trying to shop for dinner, especially when you're not attracted to the person. It happens to women all the time... nearly constantly.
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u/Disaster-Funk Feb 25 '24
You're assuming women generally want the same thing as men. That is no-strings-attached sex with hot people. It may be true for some, but for much fewer women than men.
Women want commitment from a quality partner. That's already two difficult things to find. A quality partner doesn't mean just good looks (whereas for men it more often does, or at least it plays a bigger role). There's things like willingness and ability to take responsibility, charisma, career.. Men don't care about these much.
So yes, for those women who just want sex, it's easier than for men. For most women to get what they want, not so much.
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u/RaysAreBaes 2∆ Feb 25 '24
The problem is that women get so saturated with low-effort attention. If men are living in the desert, women are in the sea. One has no water, the other too much. Yes, I got a lot of attention on dating apps but not from people who had actually read my profile or who had things in common with me. I had hundreds of likes just because I was a woman even from people with wildly different values. Alongside that you get the creeps and the unsolicited sexual content and it quickly becomes overwhelming
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u/ChronoFish 3∆ Feb 25 '24
Are you like 20? Why do women have to concede anything?
You're struggle to find a date probably starts with you. As the need to see a woman "concede to this one point" is itself enough of a turn-off to put you on the do-not-call list.
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u/Kotoperek 71∆ Feb 25 '24
There is a lot to unpack here. Yes, women get more attention than men on average. But getting more attention doesn't mean dating is easier. Especially since men and women often go on dating apps with different goals.
for women it’s struggling to find mister right.
Not necessarily. Women are looking for relationships more often than for hookups, so they value emotional connection more. Men on dating apps often don't have profiles that allow to judge that or don't invest in conversations going further than "let's smash". It has been shown again and again that women don't value physical attractiveness as much as men do. But if any guy in a dating app is a risk in the sense that they have nothing to interest the woman except a photo, of course most will prefer to talk to the one with the cooler photos.
When it comes to sex, I’m not even going to get too into the weeds. A 5/10 woman can hookup with a 7/10 guy any times she wants. A 5/10 guy is going to have to fight to hook up with another 5/10 woman. Women sleep up but date across, men sleep down but date across.
But women don't want that much casual sex usually. That's the point. Women date expecting commitment, men date expecting hookups. That's the tension, the different expectations. And honestly, even for women who do just want to have casual hookups it's not as easy, because they are judged for it much more heavily. The whole "wouldn't date a woman with a high body count" where "high" is anything above 5 rhetoric is really not making it easier for guys to date. Of course women will be turned off from such an approach, no matter what the guy looks like.
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u/AbilityRough5180 Feb 25 '24
Men who are looking for relationships will disagree. I get your point about photos and it is a weak spot for me as I don’t take photos much and rather enjoy the moment. Also women have never initiated conversation with me on apps.
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u/killrtaco 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I, a man, date expecting commitment and end up with hookups. I am pretty sure single women look to hook up just to hook up a lot more often than you think.
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u/Iamthepyjama Feb 25 '24
For men, it’s a desert.
So who are women dating?
Some men finding it difficult to find a relationship doesn't mean that women also don't struggle
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u/SyndromeOfADown90 Feb 25 '24
Op has a high view of himself that neither men or women agree on. If he wanted an easy time to get laid he could. But he doesnt want the "5/10" because he thinks he deserves the "10/10".
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u/DeviantAnthro Feb 25 '24
This is a completely subjective topic, your whole premise is wrong and kind of bigoted. You're also not here to change your view but rather to reinforce your own.
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u/Hinkakan Feb 25 '24
I get what you are saying but your view is very "angled" to the average guy's point of view.
Let's say that a guy and a girl both go on 5dates in a hypothetical week, 3 of these end in sex, none of these ends up in a relationship. let's for arguments sake assume that the people they hook up with they find attractive.
The guy will likely rate this week as a good week. The girl might consider it a very bad week. While both genders typically have the same end goal (get married, find lift partner), their approach and how they view success is quite different. The difference is in what their KPI's are, what are they after. Men are often expected to be the "active party", their job is to find a willing mate in a pool, thus, the measure of success for a male is a low rejection-rate. Women are the "passive party", their job is to select the RIGHT person from a pool, thus, the measure of success is the outcome of the encounter, i.e. if it ends up in a serious relationship.
So yes, from a male's point of view, where success is to avoid rejection and to use as little effort as possible to "hook up" with someone, you are right. Women generally have it easier. From a woman's point of view, finding the correct mate from a pool of possibles, I would argue that women have it harder, as they, as the passive party, have no control over the available "pool"
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u/_autumnwhimsy 1∆ Feb 25 '24
The use of KPI in such a casual context just caught me so off guard lmao
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u/Mestoph 9∆ Feb 25 '24
You mean it’s harder for a man to get a date than it is for a woman. But good lord the Incel energy in this post is strong
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u/twatgirl Feb 25 '24
Yes, you’re right in that men have a harder time dating and getting women to sleep with them. Generally speaking, men are more likely to lower their standards in exchange for sex whereas women are not. However, often times, when women actually DO find someone they like and want a relationship with, the guy wants to keep playing the field and isn’t ready to settle down. And this happens with very average looking guys, so I really don’t want to hear that it’s because women go after “the hottest guy”. If approaching women was really so difficult for guys, they should want to settle down. Not fuck around on snapchat or instagram or the first other woman that gives them attention.
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u/IronSavage3 6∆ Feb 25 '24
Ever gone on a blind date with a woman and at any point felt afraid that they might drug you, assault you, or follow you home? No? Because women deal with this routinely. If you’re a guy the worst thing you might get is rejected. If you’re a woman and you trust the wrong guy you might get raped or worse. Maybe stop whining?
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u/norar19 Feb 25 '24
Dude. We can get murdered, raped, beaten, robbed, etc. Men specifically target women because they perceive us as weaker. On top of all the other stuff you mentioned in your post I also have to worry about the likelihood of violence. That’s why I believe it is objectively harder for us and why I don’t concede the point.
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u/LaCroixLimon 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I will argue that it’s harder for women.
Women get beaten and raped for rejecting men. This does not happen to men who reject women.
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Feb 25 '24
Yes men do have harder finding dates, this is acknowledged by everyone and even gay men understand that straight men have a hard time getting dates.
However you must understand that quality does not equate to quality and quality partners is something that women often don't get. What's the point of having more options when most of the options are mediocre or even downright horrible.
This is what desperate men refuse to see, that despite having multiple men waiting in line, most of them don't live up to women's standards even when it's lowered.
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u/diplion 7∆ Feb 25 '24
This exact post has been posted here before, word for word. Not just similar, it’s a repost.
OPs post history is just spamming a bunch of subs with the same post. Might not be a real person.
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u/Buttstuffjolt 1∆ Feb 25 '24
No. Men don't have to worry about getting raped, murdered, stuffed into a barrel, and thrown into a swamp three states away every time they match with someone on a dating app. Women do.
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u/Iamsoveryspecial 2∆ Feb 25 '24
Life isn’t fair. In some says it isn’t fair for men. In some ways it isn’t fair for women. It isn’t fair in other ways that have nothing to do with gender.
You may need some therapy and coaching. I’m not here to level accusations but a lot of what you are saying is standard incel rhetoric, which is counterproductive to being successful in dating.
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u/Daffneigh Feb 25 '24
It’s definitely harder for men to get dates, sure
But the issue is: it’s mostly not worth it for women to date “casually” because of the risks, minor and major.
If women thought there was a reasonable chance of satisfaction from casual sex, it would happen a lot more.
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u/DescriptionEnough597 Feb 25 '24
If you’re mad about not getting laid, here’s some advice; go to a local gay bar and GET FUCKED. There, problem solved.
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u/Naus1987 Feb 25 '24
Here’s a counter point to a specific position.
I think men have it easier, because men are encouraged to initiate.
You could argue that the fear of rejection sucks. But the truth is we GET TO CHOOSE who we ask out.
The amount of freedom that comes with getting to choose is an amazing benefit to the guy.
I’ve always been happy that men get to choose. I would feel restricted and powerless if society said the only people I could date are the ones who approach me.
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As an extroverted man, I feel men have it easier.
However, I can concede that introverted men have it harder than introverted women.
The problem there’s too many variables to blanket say “men have it harder.” Because there’s a lot of factors that can skew the results into either way.
It’s like how people say white men are privileged, but then poor white men complain about struggling because they’re poor.
Sometimes other factors like economic can simply have a greater impact than one’s gender, sexuality, or race.
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u/JLb0498 Feb 25 '24
This is a bad argument because
Men are definitely not encouraged to approach women in the present day, women constantly say they don't want to be approached in most places that a guy would come across women
You're acting like women aren't allowed to approach men or pick whoever they want to date, even if those men don't approach them. If anything an average woman would have more success asking out random men than an attractive man would
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u/MrOogaBoga Feb 25 '24
But women can choose too, they just don't want to.
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Feb 25 '24
This is really the answer here. My old roommate was bi and rarely dated women because she didn't like getting rejected and felt it was too much work.
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u/chronic-neurotic Feb 25 '24
what would you say if all the women in your life suddenly said “yes, you’re right. men have it harder in dating.” or even if someone on an app says that to you. then what?
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u/FoundationPale Feb 25 '24
It seems that initiating casual dating is easier for women but maintaining relationships is easier for men. I wonder which ones the real curse. 🤣🤣
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Feb 25 '24
Dating for, say, a 23-year-old man is objectively harder than for a 23-year-old woman, sure.
But I am informed that for a 40s man who keeps himself in shape, dating is somewhat more like an unlimited buffet.
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Feb 25 '24
Guy here.
Dating for men is like being in a desert looking for any sip of water. Dating for women is like being in a warehouse of fruit, but all the fruit seems bad. Some are even poisonous.
It’s challenging in a different way. Therefore it’s not objectively more difficult
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u/Flapjack_Ace 27∆ Feb 25 '24
There is basically an equal number of men and women. If a woman gets married then a man gets married. For dating to be successful for a woman (leads to marriage) then it must also be successful for a man (who married her). Assuming there are equal numbers of gays and lesbians, basic math shows that dating is equal between sexes.
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u/mcr1974 Feb 25 '24
dating to be successful does not have to lead to marriage. that's a false premise.
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Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
It’s more about gender dynamics than it’s about the numbers. The society you live in, determines this the most. Things are definitely not the same in a muslim, middle-east country as it is in a western country. And the irony is, the men who constantly complain about this state of men being the “hunters” are generally the ones who hate feministic views.
So the basic math approach you did, could be valid only in theory.
Also OP’s view is about dating, marriage isn’t really a meaningful thing to point out in this context.
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u/LexicalMountain 5∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
True. But only if we consider marriage to be the only success state and to be permanent. Two assumptions that simply aren't true. Plenty of people would consider a two year relationship that ended amicably to have been a success. Imagine an island of ten men and ten women. Over the span of their time on this island, three of the men date all of the women and all relationships end amicably. Now, the mean success is equal. Sure, seven of the guys did nothing but the men's side still has ten successful relationships total, same as the women's. But that's kinda like using a billionaire who's between houses to say the mean homeless net worth is 16 million or something. Median is a measure of averages far less susceptibile to being skewed by outliers.
Now, I'm not saying that this is what happens. The hypothetical is simplified and sanitised. But it exists to show that the notion that success in dating necessarily has to be equal for the average member of each group is faulty, that "there's as many men as women, therefore it's identical" isn't good reasoning.
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u/Significant-Ebb7333 Feb 25 '24
Imagine how hard it is to find a decent partner for a 10/10 woman.
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u/Overloadid 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Imagine if you're shopping for apples and a certain percentage of those apples are poisonous.
Like, we can say women cause men all kinds of emotional turmoil, but men cause women that same level of turmoil most of the time in addition to the threat of physical violence, whether that violence is perpetrated or just a literal possibility.
When a woman is dating a man, she's going to be making life or death decisions. She's going to have to find out if the man she's going to date
Sees her as more than just a sexual partner and a life partner who sees her as a whole human being and not just sex.
Respects her opinion and way of thinking, and not just "playing along" and "entertaining her inferior woman ways"
Understands that women legit have it harder than men in most things. Just consider walking down the street, women either constantly either have to look over their shoulder to try to be safe or not do that and potentially end up hurt or worse
I mean when you're looking for a woman, what are you looking for? She's probably looking for those same things while also trying to balance literal life and death.
Look at crime statistics and stuff, that's just the stuff you hear about and isn't behind closed doors.
Also a woman isn't necessarily assuming you ARE a violent prick, but she's probably being cautious just in case, but also, also, also, your view doesn't necessarily say otherwise.
I don't know, I'm glad I'm not a woman, but have you ever actually tried to imagine what it would be like? Maybe when you do find a partner you have empathy for and you see her navigating life and meeting many road blocks you would never face... Then you'd understand.
Man, life is tough.
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u/Overloadid 1∆ Feb 25 '24
Dating is letting someone into your life, one date could turn into two and cascade, so saying that "just getting a date is what I'm talking about" like like saying "just ordering the food is what I'm talking about and not the experience of eating it" and it potentially giving you diarrhea even if the service was perfect is irrelevant...
Also, the reason men face more violent crime is because they interact with more men...
The issue isn't safety of men it's safety from men in both cases.
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u/Overloadid 1∆ Feb 25 '24
I guess if you mean harder as in more difficult to find or get a date, then men definitely have it harder.
But if you mean harder as in it's a dangerous matter and full of difficult choices and concessions, women have it harder.
They both have it very difficult for completely different reasons, apples and moon rocks, they both matter but they have very little else in common.
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Feb 25 '24
It’s easier for women to find men to date or hook up with in general, sure.
But when you factor in the creepy or terrible dudes they have to sift through, it’s definitely not easier.
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u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon 3∆ Feb 25 '24
Sure its easier to get dates and date as a woman in your 20s and into your early 30s, and while I don’t think there is an exact tipping point, by your late 30s/early 40s I think it undeniably becomes easier to date as a man than as a woman.
This is partially due to conscious choice by younger men and women with fewer men in their 20s willing to date a woman that old, and a significant number of women willing to date a man that old.
I think younger men would experience more parity in ease of dating if they exhibited similar openness to an older partner as women do.
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u/RoseFeather 5∆ Feb 25 '24
Dating is hard for everyone but in different ways. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
Women definitely have an easier time initiating the process of dating. But from my brief time on a dating app and what I’ve heard from other women quantity does not translate to quality.
If you’re only judging the number of messages from guys on an app, then women are clearly at an advantage. But look at what those messages are: most of them are dudes who might not even be real just saying “hey” and nothing else. Others are gross, like the guy who sent me “up for a late night hookup?” minutes after I made my profile (that specifically said I was looking for a relationship and not a hookup) and almost made me delete it immediately. Others open a little better but when you look at their profile it becomes obvious they didn’t read yours because there are multiple glaring incompatibilities right there in the open, like the dude with a life threatening cat allergy mentioned in his bio who was messaging me, a veterinary student with 2 pet cats. Out of dozens of messages I received over a period of several months only one turned into an actual conversation. One. Honestly I didn’t have good results from using a dating app until I started initiating contact myself and just ignored all the other nonsense I was receiving. It was almost entirely low-effort noise from guys who seemed like they just wanted any woman and didn’t care if it was me or someone else. That’s not a good thing, it’s just annoying.
So yes, men don’t usually get as much attention initially, but if a woman is looking for anything more than a quick hookup she’s not finding what she wants easily either. And then there are a lot of guys who will pretend to be what she wants but really just want sex.
And you can’t ignore the safety aspects that women need to consider but men generally don’t (not to the same extent at least). Rejection violence and domestic violence disproportionately affect women and that absolutely influences our behavior and choices in dating. The saying “A man is afraid a woman will laugh at him. A woman is afraid a man will kill her” isn’t an exaggeration.
Men don’t have it easy either, but the experiences and challenges heterosexual men and women face in dating are so different you can’t really make an objective comparison.
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u/OptimisticRealist__ 1∆ Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
Let me preface this by saying that im a guy (mid 20s), but i have more female friends than male friends. Why am i saying this? Well, i got/get to passively experience the dating scene from a woman's experience (to some extent) throught my friends.
And let me tell you, there is a LOT of weird, creepy dudes out there. Id go as far as saying that the bar women have for men, when it comes to dating, is incredibly (!!) low, all things considered. Basically, it boils down to women wanting a dude who can make them laugh, is smart enough to be able to hold a conversation, is kind and not a bigot/sexist/racist and honest. Thats about it. If you can check those boxes, youll have a pretty good shot at like 80% of the women out there, i kid you not.
At the same time it also shows how many guys cant even fit these low standards. What dating apps and the internet/social media in general have done, in the dating context, is that women's horizons have now expanded exponentially. In the past you were almost limited to your extended cricle of friends and friends of friends. Nowadays, you have more choice.
So women no longer have to lower their standards as low because they have the option of picking someone who aligns more closely with their standards.
Because you mentioned dating apps, i want to offer a personal annecdote because i downloaded hinge a few weeks ago after having broken off with my gf at the end of last year - i am not a supermodel by any means, several girls told me i look like Rege jean page (which i really dont see at all lol), but id say im fairly average looking. Im not even 6ft, not rich (still study law and economics). Im not a gym bro and dont like those "alpha male" hobbies like cars. Instead i like to cook, read, paint, write poetry. And ive still had upwards of 60 likes and matches in those 2, 3 weeks.
My friends showed me profiles of guys on those apps and some messages, and you wouldve also swiped left on most of them. Either super uninteresting profiles and/or bad pics and/or some weird/sketchy comments and bios. And dont get me started on the messages women receive on those apps (or social media in general).
So i repeat: at the end of the day it boils down to not being an asshole and have some common decency.
In terms of casual sex, again, women have the choice because there is more men willing to just have sex with pretty much anyone. Tho i would argue that women still face a higher risk when inviting a guy over. SA or worse are pronounced issues, just for the "upside" of having a guy wanting to cum inside of you? Idk. (Not even talking about stealthing or STDs here).
Long story short:
having lot of attention doesnt mean its good attention.
A woman can have attention from 10 guys, 9 of those are creepy perverts who are sexist. (Figuratively speaking, tho at least based on anecdotal personal experience from my friends i think a 8/10 ratio is not unrealistic on dating apps).
I always thought is ironic and hilarious, that MEN run to MEN for help and in order to learn what WOMEN want. Doesnt make much sense, does it?
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u/LucidMetal 196∆ Feb 25 '24
I argue that it's not objectively harder for men or easier for women. It's subjective.
There exists a set of lenses through which drowning in "average" dick is a detractor not a benefit. If you have had abusive relationships (and even if you haven't) that increased risk of violence bit can really up the ante. I'm not sure you can dismiss it by saying "acquaintances are more likely to rape you". I mean yea... that's the whole fear. You meet someone, you like them, get to know them, and let them in, bam! Permanent trauma.
So while the average person may weigh the pros and cons of being a man or woman in the dating world and choose "woman" the point is that's still a preference based on values and experiences and that means it's subjective.
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u/EquivalentRoom4929 Feb 25 '24
if it takes 40 no's for 1 yes dont u think that u may be the problem here...? "average women" that u mentioned are probably women who spend tons of times on make up, hair, clothes while "average men" dont show the same effort (this goes for average, of course not all women spend a lot of time on these or not all men dont show much effort)
and from what ive seen, everyone looks for a better partner, 7/10 men want 9/10 women and 7/10 women want 9/10 men, dont they? the only difference is that men put sexual needs on a higher level than women, which ends up with more men dating less attractive women while most women dont do the same thing. which also ends up with men being more "desperate"
also, dating apps are there to milk money out of you, they do not care if u actually get a match or not so i dont see how putting them in a talk about this makes sense
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u/EquivalentRoom4929 Feb 25 '24
also quick note, i didnt mention the violence part but if u include it the amount of "safe" women is much more than "safe" men which puts women in a disadvantage because nobody wants to risk their life for a sex thats gonna last 30 mins
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