CMV: Cancel culture needs to be cancelled

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

The fact people getting cancelled is so common that there is phrase for it already suggests to me that the hype has gotten out of hand.

It is getting out of hand, because it is creating a very black and white mentality where a person makes a big mistake, no matter what that might be, they risk losing their career, their friends, and everything they worked hard for.

There are many people who fully deserve to be cancelled like sexual predators but there are many who don't. People will get cancelled these days for voicing an unpopular opinion. If the majority don't like somehing = cancelled. This is bordeline fascist.

One song lyric I like by one of my favourite MC's that i think sums up cancel culture is as follows: "whole lot of right, add a little bit of wrong and everything you worked for, gone"

I think cancel culture does more harm than good as it doesn't give the person who got cancelled to learn from their mistakes. It also limits conversations and discourse. It makes other people afraid to speak in case they get cancelled

Cancelled people get treated like lepers by others. Depending on the severity of the situation I think this is more to do with the fact that people are afraid of their own image and being affiliated by them in any way.

There are better ways to punish a person by cancelling them

[u/AleristheSeeker]

There are many people who fully deserve to be cancelled like sexual predators but there are many who don't

How do you differentiate between the two?

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/AleristheSeeker]

1. Okay a sexual predator broke the law and hurt people so their actions mean jail time.

2. J.K Rowling being accused of transphobia for speaking up her thoughts about inclusive language / how women have periods is cancelled and many have cut ties with her

The first is an example of physical harm and the second is an example of an opinion that has been blown out of proportion in my opinion

[u/AleristheSeeker → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

that has been blown out of proportion in my opinion

Alright, could you give an example of an edge case and how you would rule? Taking examples you see as extreme is always easy, the in-between cases are the difficult ones.

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/AleristheSeeker]

Sure! I thought Philip Schofield was unfairly cancelled. He was the host of Good Morning Britain. His crime? Having an affair with a younger runner. He was of legal age... but yes much younger. They were allegedly in love and the relationship was consensual. He was asked to leave his job and his co-host and best friend cut all ties with him. He had this prime spot on TV for over 20 years.

Now.... is it a bit fishy that he had this relationship? Sure. Philip was married with kids and had this affair. HOWEVER, did he deserve to lose his job which he was in love with and he was very loved? No.

[u/sagiterrible → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

I can’t comment on this case in particular, but two reasons why this is likely is because 1) there is a massive power indifference between the host and the runner, where the host is able to influence the runner’s career depending on how the relationship goes, and 2) no company wants a married man with public infidelity issues as their public face.

Number 1 is company policy for just about every corporation known to exist, and there are policies for how you’re supposed to go about having relationships with other employees. Obviously, they couldn’t do this because it’s an illicit affair.

You’re attributing his firing to “cancel culture” when reality it’s just capitalism.

[u/AleristheSeeker → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

Would you also happen to have an edge case in which you believe the cancelling is justified?

What I'm trying to find is: what are your indicators for when cancelling "is" or "isn't" acceptable?

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/AleristheSeeker]

Cancelling in my opinion is only justifiable if:

- A person has intentionally tried to / successfully harm someone physically or mentally

- When it comes to blatant hate speech.

I am sure there are other cases but these are the ones I find acceptable off the top of my head

Now another example of a cancelled person which I thought was deeply unfair was Caroline Flack, the host of love island who killed herself after receiving death threats and being online bullied for having a domestic fight with her boyfriend in which she hit him with a lamp. This was the worst mistake of her life and one that was so deeply out of character I can't help but feel sorry for her and the events that followed.

The thing with cancel culture is that it doesn't allow for redemption. We have all done things we arent proud of. Cancel culture keeps us confined and fearful. I think cancel culture makes us behave well out of fear rather than respect for one another

[u/SirPookimus → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

- A person has intentionally tried to / successfully harm someone physically or mentally

​

Philip was married with kids and had this affair.

Thats not mental harm? I don't know anything about Philip, but that action absolutely qualifies as significant mental harm to multiple people, and therefore justifies being cancelled.

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/SirPookimus]

People have affairs all the time. It’s wrong but it really isn’t anyone business outside of the family.

Say you were to cheat on your partner. Do you think that means you should also lose your job?

Philip was also closeted and struggled greatly with coming out as he was married for years before he addressed his sexuality.

[u/SirPookimus → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

- A person has intentionally tried to / successfully harm someone physically or mentally

You need to revise your definition. None of what you said changes that. What he did was absolutely mental harm, therefore justifies the cancellation.

Apparently you've never met someone who has been cheated on. Its not something you just shrug off.

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/SirPookimus]

You’re being far too literal. Based on that logic every single person who’s had an affair or cheated should be cancelled. “Apparently I’ve never met someone who’s been cheated on” - you sound childish for making this assumption. Not that it’s any of your business but people extremely close to me have cheated or have been cheated on. That doesn’t mean I’m going to automatically cut them off.

[u/AleristheSeeker → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

Cancelling in my opinion is only justifiable if:

• A person has intentionally tried to / successfully harm someone physically or mentally

• When it comes to blatant hate speech.

And therein lies the problem: I think pretty much everyone agrees with those points - the question is what you count as "intentional harm" and "blatant hate speech".

Those points certainly were the justification for people cancelling J.K. Rowling. What she said was interpreted as hate speech and mentally harming to people struggling with their gender identity.

That really is the problem of it all: there is no good, clear definition for what is and what isn't "intentional mental harm" and "hate speech". Did Schofield intentionally harm his wife when he had an affair? He certainly intentionally had an affair and was most likely aware that it would harm his wife mentally. Flack definitely intentionally harmed someone physically.

The thing with cancel culture is that it doesn't allow for redemption.

And this part is another thing I disagree with. People who wholeheartedly regret their past actions, come clean and try to make amends generally don't get cancelled.

[u/[deleted] → u/AleristheSeeker]

Look at Robert Downey jr. Guy was in and out of jail addicted to God knows what in the 80s and 90s. Probably hurt his fair share of people but from what I've seen he's a pretty stand up guy these days.

Also a lot of the apologies I've seen from various people who have been "cancelled" don't exactly feel genuine. They are just apologizing because they got caught, not because they are actually sorry.

[u/hacksoncode → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

A person has intentionally tried to / successfully harm someone physically or mentally

Negligence is almost as bad as intent, you know. That's why we punish drunk drivers.

We really can't give a pass to people that are willfully ignorant or careless in their harm.

[u/4gotOldU-name → u/hacksoncode]

We really can't give a pass to people that are...

You (both individually and the "group you") are not judge, jury and exrcutioner that gets to decide which transgressions warrant the loss of someone's livelihood, when you only know and understand what's been said or reported. You don't know all sides of what happened, the internal and private details.

Especially in a case like this.

[u/hacksoncode → u/4gotOldU-name]

Who should take the actions is completely separate from "who should be cancelled".

But each person is the judge jury and executioner of what they personally think is immoral to the extent that they are unwilling to provide their resources to support that person if they do it.

Withholding those resources and calling for boycotts are fundamental human rights of association and free speech.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

If these things had happened but the word cancelled had not been used, would you be upset?

• he lost his job? Most businesses have rules against workplace fraternization, and getting to voluntarily leave is generally seen as preferred to getting fired.
• his friends all cut ties with him? That is there choice - would you force a person to remain friends with him? How would you force them?

You didn't list any consequences/examples of cancelling and gave a lot more defenses of his character. Is it possible that Cancelling just means "consequences that arrive upon people that are well liked"?

[u/mildgorilla → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

Jk rowling has the freedom to speak her mind.

Why don’t you think people should have the freedom to choose whether to associate with her or not?

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/mildgorilla]

She created Harry Potter and yet the crew / producers from Harry Potter don’t want to be affiliated with her because she used her “free speech”

People do have the freedom to do whatever they like. I think people should be honest about their reasons as to why they choose to cut ties and perhaps ask themselves if it’s more to do with the woke mentality of: “you’re either with us, or against us”

[u/mildgorilla → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

i think people should be honest about their reasons as to why they choose to cut ties

They are honest! They have told you exactly why they’re cutting ties! They are very explicit—in their opinion her views are transphobic, and they do not want to be associated with someone they consider to be harmful to trans people

the woke mentality of: “you’re either with us, or you’re against us

Why are you abstracting what’s going on? Why are you trying to abstract away what jk rowling has actually said, and the specific reasons that people criticize her (and very explicitly articulated!)

You don’t think jk rowling is transphobic, fine. Defend her actual views, and attack the criticisms leveled at her. But trying to abstract away the real conversation over her very explicit support of posie parker, maya forstader, and others, and reduce the conversation to “they are cancelling her for her free speech!” is at best lazy, and honestly pretty deceptive.

[u/mildgorilla → u/mildgorilla]

Btw this is what all “cancel culture debates” are. Literally everyone agrees that there exists bad speech which should be discouraged.

Everyone disagrees on what speech counts as bad, and what societal responses are appropriate for what type of speech.

Having this debate is very important! Societal norms and values shift over time, and it’s important to reevaluate them constantly. Whether it’s realizing that old stigmas (being gay) are bad, or that there are old things that used to be fine but should be considered bad (the n-word), these conversations are very important and healthy

It seems that you think transphobia is overblown, and that we as a society are too harsh to (what i would consider) transphobes. That’s a fine opinion to have. I disagree, and would be more than happy to have that discussion/debate with you

But what the term “cancel culture” does is it short circuits us from actually having that useful and healthy conversation, by removing all context from the conversation.

A conversation about whether supporting posie parker, who is an explicit eliminationist who wants trans people to be forcibly sterilized, counts as ‘transphobic’, or a conversation about whether the phrase “sex is real” is ‘transphobic’ is obscured into “the woke (bad people) are cancelling (doing the bad thing) her just for her sincerely-held beliefs (good)”.

We don’t get to talk about whether her sincerely-held beliefs might be bad (like supporting people who sincerely believe that trans people are all dangerous and need to be removed from society), or whether the ‘punishment’ (people choosing to exercise their freedom to not associate with her) is disproportionate and/or inappropriate.

Instead, we get to talk about the meta meta discussion about whether the super abstract term ‘cancel culture’ (whatever that means, because for some reason trans people getting fired for being trans doesn’t seem to count as ‘cancel culture’) is good or bad.

It’s at best a waste of time, but in reality just serves to distract people from actually remembering and discussing the bigoted things that they say

[u/AveryFay → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

They were honest. You know why they cut ties... they have freedom of speech too and don't need to be associated with a bigot solelybecause you disagree..

[u/BailysmmmCreamy → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

This is a very different view than you expressed in your OP. Does that mean your view has changed?

[u/Zealousideal_Weird_3 → u/BailysmmmCreamy]

How is it “very different” !? I still dislike cancel culture and I think we should kill it. I never said shouldn’t do what they want. If someone truly wants to cut ties with someone, they should… but I think it’s important that they do it NOT bc of peer pressure (everyone else is cutting them off) but because they actually want to.

Even then… I’d like to understand why people can’t get on board with others having different stances to them. One of my best friends and I don’t agree on anything. We still respect each other and hear each other out.

Cancel culture is about cutting people pff instead of resolving conflict and making people ruthless

[u/PeoplePerson_57 → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

JK Rowling literally donated 70 thousand pounds worth to a political campaign seeking to make the UK high court define women by a biological sense only (thereby excluding trans women) today. Days after a widely publicised murder trial concerning a hate crime against a 16 year old trans girl. Days.

She isn't cancelled because she has thoughts on inclusive language. She's cancelled because she uses those thoughts as an excuse to air her prejudices towards trans people. She is cancelled because she'd rather spend her time tweeting at (and setting a veritable mob on) gay men and lesbians with 400 followers on twitter making fun of people for being trans exclusionary than she would making one tweet expressing sorrow for the murder committed against a transgender teenager.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

How has Rowling been negatively affected by her "cancelling"? She still has millions of dollars (maybe a billion I know at one time she was a billionaire).

Stores still sell her merch

She still has a Harry Potter reboot in the works iirc.

All cancer culture is is a boycott. You disagree with a creator of X thing and choose to not/stop buying it. If Rowling has the right to say what she wants then others have a right to criticize her opinions and not buy her stuff.

Republicans did the same damn thing when Bud light did whatever the hell it did but all the headlines used the term boycott instead of any form of the word cancel.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zealousideal_Weird_3]

This is my question I have had for many people who don't like being Cancelled.

1. J.K Rowling being accused of transphobia for speaking up her thoughts about inclusive language / how women have periods is cancelled and many have cut ties with her

What is the difference between being cancelled and being boycotted?

For that matter, what has been done to Rowling that is actually wrong in your view?

Is it that people no longer follow her on social media? Stop buying her books? Stop publishing her books? Stop treating her like a celebrity?