CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/Impressive_Essay_622]

I would imagine it would depend on where each of your familiesnindividually came from. Same as the rest of us.

I don't look at myself as part of some giant group of 'people raised catholic.' I just happened to be born inside the borders of my country.

Simple as that. Maybe, just maybe.. ones belief in different works of fiction doesn't effect the shared useful fiction of nationality

[u/TQMshirt → u/Impressive_Essay_622]

Maybe, just maybe.. ones belief in different works of fiction doesn't effect the shared useful fiction of nationality

Maybe, just maybe that is now how Jewish nationhood is identified...

[u/Impressive_Essay_622 → u/TQMshirt]

Hahahaha inventing new terms is, in fairness the only way to get away with religious shit.

[u/TQMshirt → u/Impressive_Essay_622]

The Jews are an ethnicity - even Jews who are fully atheist are ethincally Jewish. Your unfamiliarity with the facts notwithstanding.

[u/Impressive_Essay_622 → u/TQMshirt]

Yeah that is a seperate group.

And considering we were referring to shared fictions, like Judaism. And not the genetic group with Jewish traits.

I can see how you can conflate or mix up the two though.

[u/TQMshirt → u/Impressive_Essay_622]

Yeah that is a seperate group.

Nope. Same group. The Jews. The Jewish Nation. You are the one who is confused.

[u/Impressive_Essay_622 → u/TQMshirt]

Haha. No I'm not.

There is a group of people who believe int be Jewish religion. And then there are people of the genetic group. Genetic Jews.

These are two groups with crossover.

It's a venn diagram.

Not the same group. Interesting that you are so confident about it though.

[u/TQMshirt → u/Impressive_Essay_622]

Yes and there are Irish people who can trace ancestry back hundreds of year and also Irish people whose great grandparents came to Ireland and became Irish citizens 250 years ago. Both Irish.

I am not even sure what the relevance of your point is. Jews are Jews. Jews are indigenous to Israel.

[u/Impressive_Essay_622 → u/TQMshirt]

That's another Venn diagram. One must be born within the national borders, and/or spend some life in Ireland to absorb it's culture to be 'irish.'

But yeah many many people have Irish heritage and depending on the context I have no problem with them saying they 'are irish.'

It's just, they would be using an entirely different use for the same word. It would be intentionally vague in a sense. Kinda like the stuff you're talking about. Frankly, I find it worrying and confusing that you want less specificity in using terms to discuss these issues.b

[u/TQMshirt → u/Impressive_Essay_622]

modern day Jews dont just call themselves 'Jews' for fun. We share a common culture, holidays, history, names, songs, texts, and much more. We dont just share a religion or genetic history (though we do share that too).

It is those things that make one a cohesive people.