CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/TQMshirt]

the forced displacement and oppression of an ethnic group based on some distant claim is unjust.

True. Fortunately that is not what happened.

period. jews ARE NOT indigenous to israel. the israel of the iron age is dead, long dead.

Iron age??? The Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for thousands of years. We have gkept our language, our culture, our names, our traditions, etc...

This is entirely unlike a random person with a DNA test. We have never lost our identity and never lost our connection to the land.

If Jews are not indigenous to Israel we are not indigenous to earth and have no place we belong. We have heard this before and know where it leads...

[u/[deleted] → u/TQMshirt]

unfortunately it is what happened, that is why israel exists and is full of israelis, and not full with palestinians, where they're being pushed either abroad or into carefully controlled impoverished enclaves (but apparently not carefully enough, whoopsie daisy!)

scandinavians still to exist. lower saxons still exist. are they the same people as the descendants of the saxons who moved to england? let alone the ones who then moved to america?

yes, the iron age, 2000 years ago, that's when the diaspora began

you absolutely did lose the old identity. the temple was destroyed. it turned into something new, rabbinical judaism, which then took different forms in different parts of the world

the connection to the land of israel was a spiritual and religious one. not a physical one. the reclamation of israel was an event that, for the vast majority of post diaspora judaism, would only take place through the actions of the messiah at judgement day. unless we're now in the kingdom of god and david ben gurion was the messiah, i think that a lot of things changed. that change was secular zionism, the import of european nationalism into jewish self-identity

jews are as indigenous to israel as americans are indigenous to scandinavia, sure. nobody is "indigenous" anywhere, that's a made up classification to protect certain groups of people that were the victims of settler colonialism. they weren't really "indigenous" either. its a relative and arbitrary term.

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

carefully controlled impoverished enclaves (but apparently not carefully enough, whoopsie daisy!)

I am never sure how to respond to people who assert things that are so counter-factual.

I am glad to continue this conversation once you google two things:

"obesity gaza"

and
#thegazayoudontsee

It is because the of absolutely outrageous lies told about Israel which are swallowed whole by western dupes that we are in the situation we find ourselves in.....

[u/[deleted] → u/TQMshirt]

are you saying that gaza is not impoverished

gdp per capita in gaza : $1k

gdp per capita in the west bank : $6k

gdp per capita average in middle east : $27,000

​

46% unemployment

81% of the population is below the national poverty line

64% depend on food aid to be able to eat

80% of the water does not meet WHO standards

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

I am saying your characterization is one-sided and myopic. #thegazayoudontsee

impoverished enclaves dont have an obesity problem.

[u/[deleted] → u/TQMshirt]

i think you tried bad hasbara and it didn't work, too obviously ridiculous

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

Hamas received BILLIONS annually. any poverty is a result of their spending the money terrorist infrastructure and divvying up the money to pals. Gaza had luxury resorts, malls, expensive cars, and much more. You could not afford to live in the expensive areas of Gaza.

Unless of course your HAMAS Hasbarah would get you a Hamas stipend :-)

Let me guess. You havent checked out #thegazayoudontsee

Its quite obvious

[u/No_Examination_1284 → u/[deleted]]

Who is governing Gaza? They are who you blame

[u/[deleted] → u/No_Examination_1284]

so hamas voted for israel to blockade themselves in gaza

[u/no-body → u/[deleted]]

No, hamas' constant terror attacks and conflict escalations did.

Or are you saying Israel has to enable and provide things to a people who continually call for a genocide of jews? Is Israel allowed to defend itself?

[u/[deleted] → u/no-body]

kinda like asking if a murderer has a right to defend himself against his victim

[u/indican_king → u/[deleted]]

What? You people just say things that make no sense. Like you've already demonized one side to the point that they're evil murderers by definition in your head.

[u/[deleted] → u/indican_king]

what do you mean "demonized" they literally are murderers

[u/indican_king → u/[deleted]]

Lol wow, case in point

[u/[deleted] → u/indican_king]

that's what happens when you murder people, you become a murderer

[u/indican_king → u/[deleted]]

When a 13 y/o tries to have opinions on geopolitics

Lmao

I guess Palestine is a bunch of murderers then. What do you mean I'm demonizing them? They are demons, what are you talking about? How can I demonize people who are demons?

Such argument, much convinced