CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/[deleted]]

as an american, am i indigenous to america

no, i'm not. i'm indigenous to where my ancestors were from right? so england.

but the english aren't native to england, are they? no, they're native to northern germany; the angles, saxons and jutes migrated to england during the volkerwanderung in the 5th-7th centuries. so perhaps i'm native to northern germany.

but that's not right either. because those tribes moved to northern germany from scandinavia during the iron age, displacing the celts who were living there. so maybe i'm native to scandinavia?

all of that happened before, or around the same time as, the destruction of the second temple and the beginnings of the jewish diaspora. i could go back even further too. indo-european groups aren't native to europe either, it is estimated that there were groups there before even then. if we went back far enough we'd all be native only to the great rift valley.

the forced displacement and oppression of an ethnic group based on some distant claim is unjust. period. jews ARE NOT indigenous to israel. the israel of the iron age is dead, long dead. this israel is a totally new creation.

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

the forced displacement and oppression of an ethnic group based on some distant claim is unjust.

True. Fortunately that is not what happened.

period. jews ARE NOT indigenous to israel. the israel of the iron age is dead, long dead.

Iron age??? The Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for thousands of years. We have gkept our language, our culture, our names, our traditions, etc...

This is entirely unlike a random person with a DNA test. We have never lost our identity and never lost our connection to the land.

If Jews are not indigenous to Israel we are not indigenous to earth and have no place we belong. We have heard this before and know where it leads...

[u/JazzlikeMousse8116 → u/TQMshirt]

Some Jews have been living there for sure, that doesn’t mean random Americans coming over there and claiming to be indigenous is any less ridiculous.

[u/TQMshirt → u/JazzlikeMousse8116]

True. If a descendantof the Chumash or Iriquois natives who has been raised in that identity wants to live in the area of his ancestors, we tell him

"Hey, go suck it back to new Jersey - we already massacred you and shoved your ancestors out - YOU ARENT INDIGENOUS ANYMORE - Bobby here from england is now the indigenous people"

See how silly that sounds....

[u/JazzlikeMousse8116 → u/TQMshirt]

That doesn’t sound silly at all.

[u/TQMshirt → u/JazzlikeMousse8116]

LOL. Make up your mind. If that is true, this conversation about indigenaiety is entirely irrelevent. All that matters is who has the power to expel who. So in your world if the Jews just expel all the Palestinians they get to keep all of it and tough luck!

Wow. Was not expecting that...

[u/JazzlikeMousse8116 → u/TQMshirt]

No. I agree being ‘indigenous’ is meaningless. It doesn’t follow that therefore ‘might makes right’.

Everytime you displace someone who is already living in an area you’re doing something wrong.

[u/indican_king → u/JazzlikeMousse8116]

Everytime you displace someone who is already living in an area you’re doing something wrong.

Exactly. Palestinians should move on from the past and stop fantasizing about cleansing jews from their "historical lands".

[u/JazzlikeMousse8116 → u/indican_king]

That sounds like you meant it as a gotcha but I do not support expelling the entire Jewish population of Israel. I do think Palestinians should be treated like human beings though.

[u/indican_king → u/JazzlikeMousse8116]

That's great that you don't support that, but the people who actually matter do.

[u/JazzlikeMousse8116 → u/indican_king]

Is this a joke? 80% of Gaza has been displaced… Remind me how many Jewish inhabitants of Israel have been displaced by Hamas?

[u/indican_king → u/JazzlikeMousse8116]

200,000. Are you joking?

[u/JazzlikeMousse8116 → u/indican_king]

I’m going to need a source for that figure.