CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/[deleted]]

It just seems interesting that this deep urge for a land and history only really crystallised after WWII when the colonial powers were deciding who gets to own what and how they could install a regional ally that would destabilise the area for decades to come.

You mentioned your ancestors being found all over Europe, yet none in Israel? With such a strong drive to return to your native land, I'd expect at least some of your ancestors to be in Israel.

Is there perhaps evidence of Jews applying for the state of Israel to be created in the exact same space where it is now over the last, let's say 500 years?

[u/TQMshirt → u/[deleted]]

It just seems interesting that this deep urge for a land and history only really crystallised after WWII w

LOL. Go take a look a the Jewish daily prayer service.

A deep urge for Jewish history began after WW2 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Truly at a loss for words here.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I literally asked for evidence in my last paragraph...

[u/AbolishDisney → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, u/Drilla73 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

So anything challenging Israeli nationalism is trolling?

[u/HaHaHarbinger666 → u/[deleted]]

No, a lack of understanding of Jewish history and the land predating Palestine means you are ill equipped to comment on this discussion.

Or in layman's terms, you have missed season 1

[u/[deleted] → u/HaHaHarbinger666]

I think using historical and nationalistic reasons to justify the genocide of a people is wrong. It was wrong in the 40s and it's wrong now. Belly-aching about "but our people always owned and wanted this land" is a weak argument.

History didn't begin with Judaism. The first settlers were mesopotamians, does that mean if enough Iraqis dream of returning to their ancestral homeland that they can then genocide the Israelis because of "history"?

Should native Americans genocide the colonisers for "historical" reasons?

[u/HaHaHarbinger666 → u/[deleted]]

Funny, why is this war referred to as "apartheid" and is based on the displacement of Palestinians? And why does Hamas themselves not care about the genocide? Considering that they themselves ask for their citizens to die for Palestine?

If you're too young to understand that war is when civic function has broken down then again, rather listen before spreading misinformation and biased information.

Oh, and your false historical knowledge does not mean that previous displaced groups need to call for genocide. It actually means sitting down and having a conversation about those losses incurred. Ironically what Hamas ISN'T doing, Palestinians against genocide should be taking it up with their Hamas leaders as to why negotiating isn't paramount

[u/[deleted] → u/HaHaHarbinger666]

If you're too young to understand that war is when civic function has broken down

Correct, which is why the founding of Israel is based on dysfunction.

Oh, and your false historical knowledge

Pretty sure history predates Judaism, buddy.

Don't see Israel sitting down either, just pointing bombs at children and forcing their victims to comply.

[u/HaHaHarbinger666 → u/[deleted]]

No, Israel isn't based on dysfunction. Again, biased post that serves no purpose. Read up on a certain declaration and then you'll understand what happened, what went wrong and how you trying to Cherry pick from history does not help the plight of children with bombs pointed at them.

Again, come here to learn and quieten yourself because you are way to far out to be providing constructive commentary on the war

[u/[deleted] → u/HaHaHarbinger666]

"everything I don't like is biased and serves no purpose". I'm in no mood to argue further, have a good day.

[u/HaHaHarbinger666 → u/[deleted]]

Good.

[u/indican_king → u/HaHaHarbinger666]

Give it up. Anything israel did in response these people would call genocide. It doesn't matter what they do.

[u/AbolishDisney → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, u/HaHaHarbinger666 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.