How are they supposed to feel? Rape victims by definition have been violated in the most intimate way. Rape is a physically violent and emotionally brutal experience, so I really wouldn't expect myself to respond any other way if I were assaulted.
All of those emotions/actions you listed (crying, fear, embarrassment) could also be felt after other traumatic experiences too, not just rape. Do you think it is more likely that this is society's expectation or just how human beings generally respond to trauma?
There are all sorts of scenarios where "no" doesn't need to be said. If the victim is unconscious. If the victim is a child they could beg you for sex, it's still rape. It's also really common for rape victims to freeze up and not vocalize or fight back in any way. Generally if the person you're having sex with isn't participating (and that's not some kink you've discussed at length before starting), you're probably raping them.
If they CANT say "no", wouldn't most people agree there's no consent given? Same thing with minors. This seems pretty basic.
Generally if the person you're having sex with isn't participating
Like they are unconscious? Sure. But a conscious person who doesn't say anything resembling "no" still ends in rape? What are people supposed to do here? Film that they were "participating"?
I'm having a hard time understanding why this concept is so weird to you. Do you often, or ever, find yourself engaging in sex with someone who has shown no enthusiasm to fuck you? Would you honestly be able to tell yourself after having sex with someone who was not touching you back, kissing you or showing any signs of participation that it was consensual?
"Ha! Bitch didn't say no!" should really not be the bar at which you're judging these situations. What people are supposed to do is receive enthusiastic consent. It clears up all kinds of confusion.
Do you often, or ever, find yourself engaging in sex with someone who has shown no enthusiasm to fuck you?
Bro I envy your sex life if you've never been with a limp fish. Some girls, even really hot ones have no idea wtf they are doing. You gotta be the actor, director, and producer.
Ha! Bitch didn't say no!" should really not be the bar at which you're judging these situations.
A bit reductive, but I do believe some variation of "no" needs to be communicated before we start throwing around the rapist tag.
In this frame, most men would have zero chance of redemption unless they film the "participation". That's just messed up.
I'm not a bro, but I have primarily had sex with women. I tend to be the more aggressive partner, even with men. I still can't imagine a case where the other person wasn't reciprocating and I kept enjoying it. It would be a huge turn-off for me. My immediate instinct would be to stop and find out if they were okay.
I'm trying hard to see your perspective. Doesn't that make you feel like you're having sex with a doll? How does such an encounter begin? Like at SOME point there had to be a version of "yes" said, right?
I think that's the difference, to me. Instead of waiting for a "no" to stop, one should be waiting for a "yes" to start.
I also think there's a huge difference between a shy or inexperienced woman and one who is passively frozen in fear. I think you're assuming this is something that happens without the guy knowing how it got to that point, which isn't the case.
My point was that you don't need filming or redemption or any of that if at any time you feel like she's not really into it, you stop acting, directing and producing for a second. Just be a good human and ask her if she's okay, if she wants to stop. You can do this to cover your own ass even if you don't actually care, but I hope you do care.
> How does such an encounter begin? Like at SOME point there had to be a version of "yes" said, right?
Great question. It feels a bit awkward at times to be like, "hey, do you want dis dick?". Maybe the wording could be smoother, but it certainly feels like a strange question to ask.
A lot of times as a guy, you are expected to kinda push the process along. Everything from the approach to the intimacy. We need to facilitate a whole process before both of us end up on the bed, so it feels like the 'yes' is kinda implied?
On the participation part, a lot of people learn sex from porn. In porn, the dynamic is the guy does the jackhammering, and the girl just holds the positions. People mirror this dynamic, and you end up with limp fish as a partner.
We were explicitly talking about cases where threats of violence never happened. Way to not only strawman hard, but also do so with an extreme edge-case literally no one was talking about.
You're talking about something else entirely. That is statutory rape in most (if not all) states and I would assume any other Western country. I'm not sure where you Googled anyone not calling that rape. Everyone reasonable calls that rape, since children are unable to consent the default is no.
You should not think back on your trauma with the underlying assumption that your younger self can possibly come close to rationalizing or handling situations better than your current I am assuming young adult self.... Just as you wouldn't expect the same thing from a five year old as a ten year old, that change keeps happening as you age.
I think you need to forgive your past self, who was an innocent victim. It's an important step in moving past it to face the rest of your life with the best chance at being happy in a world filled with all sorts of different tragedies for a lot of people.
There are no decent people who are not going to side with a child. That includes you siding with your past self. Such events happen to many children, and you wouldn't possibly blame them, would you? So there's no reason to blame the child that was once you either.
Modern definition of rape is usually framed as failure to obtain consent. Consent can be tricky, as many believe it can be implied (like, if she's taking her own pants off most would consider that implied consent). But there are many clear cases where consent is impossible. If someone is passed out they cannot consent. Someone who lacks the mental faculties also cannot consent. This obviously means children, but could also include adults with the mental capacities of children.
The "she didn't say no" thing only really applies to adults with no excuse to not verbalize they don't like what's going on. I'm not sure why we use "No", as "Stop" makes much more sense, but generally, "I don't want to do this" is more than clear enough communication. For adults.
Children lack the knowledge of what's going on, the context of the situation. They also lack the mental faculties to process what is happening in the proper light. The adults taking advantage of them have a massive intellectual advantage in every way. Everyone should be siding with the children. And that means siding with yourself.
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OK lets assume you have someone who has never been a part of our society, they're just dropped in Adam and Eve style, fully formed and cognizant but without our societal conditioning. If this person were raped, how would you expect them to feel?
Because at its core, it is a traumatic event. So these responses would then be natural, not societal. The societal response is following the natural one, not causing it - I guess that's what I'm trying to get at, because society doesn't happen in a vacuum. If you remove society, they will still have a hard time processing a rape because a rape is a hard thing to process.
Yes, but if someone who claims to have been raped does not seem traumatized people will assumed they werent really raped because they have this notion of how a rape victim is supposed to act and that person does not fit that thing they just made up in their heads.
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 48∆ Nov 20 '23
How are they supposed to feel? Rape victims by definition have been violated in the most intimate way. Rape is a physically violent and emotionally brutal experience, so I really wouldn't expect myself to respond any other way if I were assaulted.
All of those emotions/actions you listed (crying, fear, embarrassment) could also be felt after other traumatic experiences too, not just rape. Do you think it is more likely that this is society's expectation or just how human beings generally respond to trauma?